Time for a debate!
The VSCC runs a series of trials for pre-war cars that are often well oversubscribed.
The MCC events are usually full to capacity, certainly at the start of the year.
So why aren't ACTC events filled with entries?
I know Classic Trials doesn't mean classic cars but why don't we see more of the older cars entered, they must still exist!?
I reckon it's because the inevitable pushing of boundaries at the top of the classes disuades owners of less competitive cars from entering, not because they see little chance of winning but because they have to punish their cars on the same restarts and obstacles as the top of the class.
Why would anyone with an original side valve Cannon want to struggle with a hill designed to take marks from a fire breathing over bored crossflow Cannon with at least twice the power and a transmission to suit!?
Most Class 8 specials look like sportscars, they are built to sportscar design ideals so I will start the debate rolling by suggesting that side valve Class 8 cars be allowed to run in Class 5. Lets see more side valve specials in use, get them Dellows out boys!
What has happened to the Ford Pops and 100e's? How about letting them run in Class 2 rather than in the same class as Duratec engined Class 3's
Over to you.........
Wouldnt Class O potentially pick up these types of vehicles as I understand that it was designed originally to cater for new entrants to trialling and those that have more delicate machinery.
ReplyDeleteMyke
I'm not suggesting they should be re-classified but if they were then the spec described may be considered similar to that of the side-valve Class 7 Dellow.
ReplyDeleteMore importantly, has anyone actually asked these people why they don't come out on ACTC events? It would be good to get some feedback from them and exactly what would entice them out more often!
Class O would be too broad, you wouldn't want a side valve Dellow and a Ford Pop in the same class, the performance difference would be too great.
ReplyDeleteKeep the ideas coming!
ReplyDeleteMartin, I'm sorry but this issue has been done-to-death in the past. Briefly:
ReplyDelete1. Class 5B - see the ACTC website - was specifically created to cater for PreWar sidevalve specials. Since being created very few, if any, of these cars have come-out-to-play in Class 5B.
2. Julian Dommett proved, years ago, that a sidevalve Dellow was (highly) competitive in Class 7. Class 5 regulars would be up-in-arms if sidevalve Dellows were ever allowed to compete in Class 5.
3. Various Ford Pops (up to 1959) are allowed to run in Class 2 - see the ACTC Rules and Regulations.
4. VSCC trials are VERY different events. A few well-prepared VSCC cars are now appearing in MCC trials, and ACTC trials with a Class 0 (Clee Hills, etc.). The majority of VSCC members appear to have very little interest in doing non-VSCC events - that's life.
End of sermon (as Chairman Simon would say).
I hope we get an answer to your question Keith as Fell Side Auto Club desperately need more entries from somewhere to continue to run the Northern. The problem with your question is that it wont get to many of the people we need answers from posted on this site.
ReplyDeleteMyke
Speaking as a clerk of the course on a one day ACTC car & bike trial
ReplyDeleteI feel its up to us clerk's to try & put on an event that gives all classes a fair chance,
becoming an increasingly more difficult task I know but iam fortunate that i have a very keen &organised secretary & chief marshal who are regular ACTC competitors.
As a side-valve engined Ford Pop 103E owner, with a car that has previously always competed in class 3 owing to fitment of alternator, GRP wings,radial tyres (rear), etc, I am happy to consider entering one day events that are essentially non-damaging, are not riddled with restarts, comprised of "real sections" predominantly on "county" roads, and where the road schedule can be maintained with a maximum road speed of around 50 mph. I am aware of several other former regular competitors who would be more inclined to compete in events of that style.
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew, I Taking your points in turn:-
ReplyDelete1. class 5b, pre war side valve specials? Did someone on the comittee have one once! :)
2. why dont the Dellows come out to play now?
3. I will let you have that one, how about opening it out to include 100e
4. I have competed in VSCC trials and they seem to be the same to me, less restarts but essentially the same. Why are they so succesful, what can we learn from them?
All this may have been done to death before but with what result? Fewer entries, less cars coming out!
The problem with the Northern has nothing to do with class structure, its all to do with costs.Unfortunately for Fell Side Auto Club they are at the wrong end of the country for the majority of trailer's, and with the state of the economy people have less disposable income to go out and do trials. I am sure I am not alone in feeling the pinch and am seriously considering what to do next year.
ReplyDeleteWhilst considering classes, how about Historic tax exempt cars, ie pre 73 being allowed into class 2 if they are unmodified, this might encourage some class 0 competitors into the one day trials.
ReplyDeleteAs an MCC Class O competitor and occasional entrant into class 4 ACTC one day events I would say it is all about money. I compete on a very restricted budget, £350 for the car in the first place, all work done myself, parts second hand or as cheap as I can get them. When I break it it costs. I passengered on the Lands End this year in a class 8 special, and I would need to spend an enormous amount of money on my Skoda to get it up most of the main trial hills.
ReplyDeleteIf I had a sidevalve Dellow, I would be reluctant to use it too much in case I broke it and then had the expenditure of repair. If the sections are designed to stop a fire breathing over bored crossflow Cannon with at least twice the power and a transmission to suit, it will probably break a sidevalve Dellow.
I think the classes are broadly OK, but maybe we need a class 9 for firebreathering trolls and other such beasts.
As Andrew Brown posted there seem to be homes for a lot of the cars mentioned and the ACTC is always willing to look at requests to vary the class structure for any particular car if a good enough case can be made.
ReplyDeleteIt has to be borne in mind that the VSCC has somewhere close to 10,000 members and runs around six trials a year.
The MCC has close to a 1000 members and runs three trials per year, so both of them have a much bigger membership to draw on for their trials.
The One-Day trials number at least 25 so people pick and choose their events.
I like Dave's suggestion above re pre 73 cars in class 2, but beware. There's aTroll out ther that qualifies!
I'll repeat the above; the ACTC will always have a look at reclassifying cars, especially if they think that this will bring in more members and entrants.
Would only allow mass produced production cars into class 2.
ReplyDeleteAs Myke says, Class 0 was brought into cater for these vehicles/drivers. What difference does it make if the competitive nature of all the cars in that class varies considerably, if as you suspect, that isn't the reason for them not coming out to play?
ReplyDeleteI too like Dave's suggestion re pre 73 cars in class 2 so long as they are unmodified,but at the same time I am cringing at the thought of a standard triumph herald,morris marina or austin allegro dropping into the bombhole at the botttom of Upper Kingswell or similar.But I think there is definately method in Dave's madness! :-)
ReplyDeleteI also agree with John re the Northern,nothing wrong with the trial itself,I think it is a brilliant event,but the location is the reason for the low entry along with the economy factor,lets hope the event continues because they have some great hills and unfortunately we can't move mountains!
pre '65 production cars [ totally unmodified ] - otherwise it would only take one 1600 escort [ mexico ] to make it a joke - ?
ReplyDeleteEvery November, Fell Side man a section on the VSCC's Lakeland Trial and hand out Northern fliers to every competitor. We point out that there is a chance for them to try out many of the sections again in February. Apart from when the VSCC had a clash of competition we get virtually NO entrants from the VSCC competitors apart from the locals that have always done our trial, Hamish White Mark Powley, Mike Telford, Alan Smith etc. We will continue to try our very best to publicise the competition amongst diverse groups but I am afraid that I can see trialling retreating to a South and South Westerly sport as theres no way we can offer any kind of incentive to offset costs. Attracting extra Class O competitors makes little difference to us as theres still the travelling to consider and we are simply not picking up any local competitors in sufficient quantities through it.The drop in numbers that Simon mentioned in one of his articles still means that those other trials, presumably, still make financial sense. Not the Northern though! No increase in numbers over this year in the future means no trial. However if anyone can come up with some sort of publicity to attract Scottish types to partake in trialling then please let me know. Where are they?
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion going on here!
ReplyDeleteFrom the detailled feedback we had from Torbay Trial in March we concluded there are two types or "trialers" - those who are competitive and those who like to have a good day out!
Balancing this across 14 classes (bikes and cars) is quite a task for the organisers so I wouldnt like to see more classes created. If you look at the car classes 7 & 8 are well subscribed, class 3 usually quite good but the other classes often quite sparse - maybe there is merit in reviewing the spec of these to attract more entries.
Another thought..... Rather than re-thinking entries in each Class should we think about levelling across the classes?
ReplyDeleteWe generally accept that Wheelspin League is Class 8 territory but what if it wasn't?
If the individual trials were able to handicap the classes to give similar results ( unlike for example Class 8 winner going clean and Class 1 winner having 45 points) then the Wheelspin would see the top flyers of each class competing against each other. This leaves the Crackington for any "mid flyers" across the classes to compete against each other. A bit like football you could have Premier, Championship and League action with top/ bottom 3 being promoted or demoted each year. Thoughts??? ( or have I just had too many glasses of wine tonight!!)
Steady chaps ref Dave & Carl's comments pre 73 or even pre 65
ReplyDeleteI reckon I could get a pre 65 mk1 Ford Cortina 1500 to give class 2 a run for there money especially South African Safari rally spec!!!!!!!
One more serious comment pre 65 ford anglia 1200 estate would be good for class 2 several were used in the 60's in standard form still cheaper to buy than an escort & pretty bullet proof........
ReplyDeletebut then a beetle would cane the lot !
ReplyDelete[ if were talking completely unmodified ! ]
who is going to 'police' the std diffs ?!
Re Keith's comments regarding wheelspin/ class8 etc
- I thought the general idea for the Clerk of Course when setting out a trial - Was to give each class a fair crack at the 'overall' win ? !
- At least thats the presumption I've always worked under-
carl your 100% right re clerk of course ,give every class a equal chance of overall win and it is possible
ReplyDeleteHow would you police any unmodified class? Its just not possible.
ReplyDeleteThere are enough arguements/speculation about diffs and class 4 beetle engines as it is without adding to the pot.
2010 Wheelspin league - 7 of the top 10 places were class 8.
ReplyDeleteDoes this bring us back to Martin's original posting about fire breathing Class 8 specials?
Will have to look into some trial results but surely some of the lower classes come close to class 8's results on some events
ReplyDeleteI agree tis a heck of a job to try & get it right for every class
but we all have our prefrance for which type of vehicle we like to compete in.
Carl has hit the nail on the head. Clerk of Course has at his or her disposal
different start lines re-start boxes or restart lines etc etc
How about one class 8 only section on each trial
C of C could make it a real B_ _ _ H that may level the scores a bit.
I had forgotten that idea! We did it for a while in the bike trials, a separate section tackled only by the experts. It was no longer needed when dual routes were introduced.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the problem with creating fair differentiation for different classes lies with the resources available (man power) at each section and in not making things overcomplicated?
ReplyDeleteI say this because it often seems that their is either a restart or not. If it has to be done then all classes attempting it use the same line, be it a 6,7,8 restart or for classes 4-8. As a class 4 competitor i have often faced the same restarts as the higher classes with little hope. Often sections could be massively improved (differentiation wise) with differentiated start lines.
But these things take organisation, require people to run them and understand the job. the danger is that things become to complicated and competitors complain that they stopped at the wrong line etc.
No matter what happens to classes someone will always find a way to bend/exploit the rules to gain an advantage and go on to be successful (probably at great expense). I enjoy competing against similar vehicles in my class and am sure others feel the same. (my 1970 Beetle would do well in class 2 btw, but i would have more fun in class4) Therefore I would be wary of splitting classes up even more.
Also - the idea of having an extreme Class 8 hill to stop them will not encourage those with more delicate or vintage specials to come out and play!
ReplyDeleteThere is a school of thought that says if you want to win the Wheelspin, which after all is for the BEST car driver, then get a class 8 (or in Arnie's case a class 7) car. The Crackington is the handicap event as it were where you compete against your peers and this category has been won by Classes 1 and 2 on many occasions.
ReplyDeleteSome great ideas and comments here!
ReplyDeleteLooking at everything that has been said so far how about this:-
Class O, open to anyone, no restarts, not eligible for the main awards but if it gets enough entries it could have it's own cups! No restarts is great for lower powered cars and saves having to have another restart line.
Class 3 and 8 have subdivisions for pre65 cars
Either include a hill for Class 8 only or allow Class's 1 to 7 to drop the score from their worst hill
i ride pre 65 trials and the occasional ACTC event previusly ( when i had the folding) i ran a 7 in the vscc. the vscc mostly would nt contemplate another clubs event ( its a mind set thing) as a bike rider now the LDT sections are great and the likes of Ilkley offer 20 sections so decent value for money some though only offer 10 or so and therefore offer poor value for money.
ReplyDeletefrom a competition point of view the biggest class in our pre 65 club ( the countries biggest) is for clubmen riding an 'eased' route. this caters for every type/ make of machine with no limit on modification I suspect that a similer class called simply clubmen on a no awards basis ( class O by another name) with no restarts would attract sunday drivers.
another barrier is .. whats with the MSA licences required for cars.. health declarations etc etc none of that for acu registration cards.. make it easy to enter make it easy to understand.. theres the start, theres the top try and get to it. make it undamaging and join the queue.
the northern trial is bang in the middle of motorcycle trials country and they attract 100 regularly to there road trials thats where there market lies not the southern based VSCC
i think there are many combinations of ideas that could be used but important to be kept simple to be workable ie different start lines ,restart lines,trye pressures, routes and to be pro active on day as clerk of course and be able to tweek things on event as your predictions of class performances go wrong[through weather changes etc] so you can get them back on track so any class can win.so far i have found this impossible myself[but you have to keep trying] but belive it the best way to make a fair trial for all cheers for now arnie
ReplyDeleteMaybe there are statistically more drivers capable of an outright win using Class 8 cars ?!
ReplyDeleteIf Wheelspin victory is what your after - get yourself a Class 8 car and see how easy it is to win !! :-]
But above all else get involved with the trial organising teams -
with a bit of enthusiasm for setting out trials you will have Hours of Fun trying out your ideas !!
'make it easy to enter make it easy to understand.. theres the start, theres the top try and get to it. make it undamaging and join the queue' Spot on billysshorts!
ReplyDelete'But above all get involved with the trial organising teams -
with a bit of enthusiasm for setting out trials you will have Hours of Fun trying out your ideas !! ' Spot on Carl!
Hello billysshorts
ReplyDeleteYou have slipped through the net not using your real name as your user ID and not being on our key to real names https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pvPe9BJppzYv7jLji-oD3fw
You are very welcome here but we do need to know your real name. Can you let us have it please as its a condition of posting here. Its what keeps this a civilised place.
Michael
I could not let the comments come to an end without some comment, I am one of the Dellow drivers who live in Scotland who did not enter the Northern this year as the car is off the road temporarily. What I cannot understand is with most ACTC competitors living in the South/Southwest and most of the events being in that part of the world there should be full entries.
ReplyDeleteThe Northern and to some extent the Northern are a long way to travel, both of the events are friendly and competitive so cost must be a factor.
When my son and I come down to do the MCC events we have a journey of over 1000 miles plus the trial. We need to stay two nights in hotels, some of which want to charge two nights for one night stay!
I am unlikely to enter the Dellow in any class other than O in future, cost of repairs, finding tyres from the ACTC list for the car is difficult if not impossible. The car is a standard 1172 with the addition of OHIV giving me a massive increase in BHP to about 45-50! If I don't enter class O then I have to enter class 8 so we have decided to concentrate on the 3 MCC events in my sons outclassed Class 8 Gruff Special, we still get a lot of fun out of it.
I hope that Classic trialling does not go the way of so called 'Sporting Trials'
with a few elite competitors taking it in turn to turn up with the latest tweaks and win.
Despite the rant I hope to see everyone down in Derbyshire in October for yet another Edinburgh, I will probably be marshalling somewhere while Mike will be out in Gruff, having a bit of fun.
To "level" things up regarding class 8 I think Arnie's idea's are spot on.if that is really necessary. Why should for example a beetle beat a troll on overall markings? We all know a well set up troll (with a suitable pilot) will out climb most things so why should it not get overall victory?
ReplyDeleteIf people don't like that then get the welder out and built a troll beater!
Just a passing suggestion may be you can subdivide each class on say cc say a 1300 cc and under has a lesser restart line or not at all which means the smaller cc cars do not need to strain and rip the guts out of there cars to get moving again as a more powerfull machine usually has stroger componets to with stand the punishment. Then its up to clark off the course to decide where to put restarts to break the class if at all.
ReplyDeleteSubdividing a class on cc is of no use to us lowly minions of Class 4 as we only have 1300cc of puny power anyway. And how do you police it as there are loads of engines that can be overbored without any way of telling externally. Poor old John would have a fit!
ReplyDeleteWhat I was trying to get at, Robin, is that I am sure there are a good number of potential competitors in Scotland that may not have tried classic trialling yet and was wanting suggestions as to how we could publicise our event north of the Border. A Class O entry and a bike entry is as welcome to the Northern as any other class so we want to intice as many potential customers as possible to keep us above water!!!! (and potentially develop an interest there also, a BIG ask that one but youve got to try)
Oh! and please dont consider sub dividing on cc (sorry toyotanut) as that would just cause further headaches for organisers and marshals alike.
Perhaps then, rather than a cc split in classes, what about a novice/rookie sticker for newcomers or maybe less competitve vehicles(ones that perhaps have not won an award)within each class,this could be easily recognizable with a sticker similar to what the circuit racers are doing. These entrants then will be easy for the marshals to spot and they can perhaps have preferential start lines, no restarts and maybe miss the odd "stopper hill" altogether. At least a few might come and sample classic trials without wrecking their car or accumulating cricket scores.Whether or not they are eligible for the main awards maybe down to the organisers.
ReplyDeleteJust another option perhaps? Nick
To broaden this debate further
ReplyDeleteIam assuming all the suggestions light hearted or other wise
are about attracting more competitors into our sport.
How about allowing class one to run a quaife or transx type diff
Reason 1] there are plenty of V W Peugeot & Vauxhall's on the market of a suitable age to make them affordable.
2] Should be a vast improvement in reliability,therefore once initial money spent the new 'novice' competitor can have many weeks of trialing.
Before everyone throws their arms up in shock & horror
I know there are some very competitive class 1 drivers competing at the moment but they all had to start somewhere.
prepare to receive the wrath of almost everyone not in class 1 :)
ReplyDeleteBefore everyone gets these pages 'red hot' thanks for warning me James.
ReplyDeleteI have no interest in class 1 at all
Iam a dear old rusty Henry fan & always will be
Fellow competitors read aforementioned comments
The organisers of the Northern are really keen to stop their event dying
any ideas are better than none
I for one would like to do their event but probably never will .I know the cost of getting there we 'go past' 3 or 4 times a year my wife's home town is on the West coast of Scotland.
My comments are genuine to get people thinking in a rational manner
I
you will never meet nicer people than those up north that run northern trial and lovely scenary to boot but it is a long way away for a lot of competitors faced with the choice of 1 northern or 2 more local events cost wise,when purses are not so stretched entrys will rise .as far as atbs limited slip diffs or what ever you call them for class one why should they be treated different from the other seven car classes who all face exactly the same probs[surly rational] ,share the knoledge if not the skills and you will find an engineer who will sort it .although with adrians forsight for class one diffs with tran x i think in the not to distant future class one will have it the easiest of the 8 classes to get a good strong free diff and all this yibber yabber about i want an atb will be forgotten cheers for now, over my dead body ,arnie
ReplyDeleteDon't forget us Cannon Fodder who want:-
ReplyDelete1. A nice day out
2. To get to the top of a reasonable number of hills
3. When we fail we don't want to risk life and limb, fearful of going over the edge or into the trees when we reverse down.
4. Few if any restarts.
5. A Class 0 without car breaking sections where we can enter our more delicate machinery.
6. A nice finishers certificate
both me and my friend Lee love the Northern and will be back next year. Lee even drove to this years event to spectate as much as possible during the day having given up the night before trying to fix a broken water pump on his trials car. It's a shame the purse tightening we all have to do is accentuated by the drive to and from this event. I for one very much hope it can continue for many years.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, thanks Myke for the framed pictures as class win prizes, another little something good and different from the organisers of the Northern.
When Martin started this discussion he asked why all ACTC events were not blessed with a larger number of competitors. Don't concentrate on the Northern, this year a set of circumstances combined which might explain the fall in numbers.
ReplyDeleteAs I said before, it is all the other events, where competitors do not have to travel the length of the country that should be looking at why numbers are falling.
Unfortunately there are not enough competitors north of the border to solve that problem. A few clubs do run PCT type trials but the main concentration seems to be on rallying.
This fall off in trials events up here started many years ago, you only have to read some of the 1950/60's magazines to see that trials were declining.
I think Michael's bit about 'Cannon Fodder' sums up the opinion of the majority of all the 'also rans'. Personally I don't expect to ever win another class, or event, but I do want to enjoy the thrill of occasionally cleaning a difficult hill.
Thanks James, glad you like it. I would have liked one of me at the point on Ullister Hill where Dave Cook took the images. Problem was I didnt even reach him!!!
ReplyDeleteGood point Robin. We need to see if some of the rally boys will come out and play but I think the roughness of sections could put some of them off.
Just a sideways look at things. Single venue trials (NOT PCT's) that do not need vehicles to be road registered so giving potential entrants a try without the hassle of MOT's, road insurance etc. Venues would be a problem I suppose though. Just a thought out loud.
Stroud +DMC ran a Clubmans class on this years Mechanics Trial -
ReplyDeleteessentially doing the same trial but without restarts and with a couple of the tougher sections/parts of sections avoided .
The class was open to all cars [ modified or not ] no tyre pressure restrictions .
[Ford model Y saloon won the class , dropping 6 ! ]
We are also running a single venue Classic trial in the autumn at a new venue [no Ebworth this year]
which will Not require Tax / Mot or Competition licence
All we require is for you lot to come along and enjoy yourselves -- No Excuses
How about a kind of 'open day' event - possibly alongside a single venue trial, where we can all try and bring a few friends who given a bit of incentive, might want to start trialling. We could let them drive a few difference cars up the same hill, and possibly also use it as a bit of a practice session, trying different tactics on the same hills. Just an idea. Not sure if this type of thing is possible though - permits/insurance etc.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think the only really practical way of encouraging new blood into ACTC events is the Class 0/Clubmans approach adopted by MAC/Stroud on the Clee/Mechanics, and a few similar events by other clubs.
ReplyDeleteTo recap: Same route as main trial but rougher sections omitted; no restarts; no tyre pressure limits. This can work as either a "Novice" class or a "Frail car/Frail driver" class.
It is, in fact, the approach that I originally suggested to the MCC, years ago, but they chose to adopt the two-trials-in-one Class 0 format which causes such a lot of extra work for the organisers. ACTC clubs running one-day trials can't afford this extra effort, hence the format adopted by MAC/Stroud/others.
... oh, and, forget about class splits by capacity. Some classes are barely large enough already, let alone if split.
Agreed Andrew - It will also allow older drivers/cars to stay in the sport. The highly competitive cars who head the results have meant the organisers have toughened up sections to challenge them. Unfortunately at the expense of loosing the enjoyment for some. From a personal perspective I wouldn't use my side valve Dellow with original Pop axle in a main trial. I know Julian suceeded with his car but most of us with original cars just don't want to put in all that development.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to mention that Class 0 on some ACTC Trials (I am thinking of the Northern and Ilkley) have to do all the sections. The Class 0 is more a mechanism in these to allow drivers without compettion licences to take part. I wouldn't have wanted to do either of those in my Dellow this year.
I am amused to see many of the "not an organiser" pundits advocating that Clerks of Course should try many of their ideas - ideas that most c-of-c's have in fact been doing for quite some time. The winners trophy for the Clee Hills Trial has names from every class on it, and I'm fairly sure that the same is true of the Allen.
ReplyDeleteI think that Sam Holmes and Carl Talbot are right in that an invasion of class 2 by pre 72 cars would be a disaster for the current incumbents. A well prepared Escort or Beetle would run away with this class forcing organisers to introduce restarts and the like - just the things that this thread wants to avoid. And just how "standard" would these standard cars have to be? And how would the scrutineers check in the one minute that they have to inspect each car? I know little about Fords, but I know I could build a Beetle that looked 100% standard but would blow all the current Class 4 cars into the weeds.
In the first posting that Martin made, he poses the question; How to get more entries in ACTC events? I would suggest he start the ball rolling by explaining why he's only entered (as far as I can see) one event this year, and that on a bike? Maybe his story will give us the real answer.
I would also like to draw his attention to the fact that Ford Pop's have been in Class 2 for about 10 years, and I haven't seen a 100E entered on a trial for over 30 years - that train left the station a long time ago!
Yeh - but you'd need to get someone else to drive it for you ! :-}
ReplyDeleteSo cruel! :)
ReplyDeleteI think Michaels comments are most valid, statisically there are a small number of competitors who are likely to win, the danger is in designing the event to produce a winner out of this small group, you need to run the event for the majority of competitors not the top few IMHO
ReplyDeleteI do like Graham's idea of a Class 9..........I'd make it for all the "1300cc" Beetles. In fact I'd put all Beetles and derivatives in there where they could play a guessing game with each other!
ReplyDeleteCan Martin please explain how an organiser can run an event "for the majority of competitors not the top few"? This is competitive motorsport in case we've all forgotten, there are winners and losers, that's life. There are a LOT of REGULAR competitors who know that they are NEVER going to win their Class, let alone get in the Wheelspin points, and they still form the majority of most entry lists.
ReplyDeleteLook at the Crackington tables. In general, those who score well in their class on one event are those who do lots of events. Is this a coincidence? I suspect not. So ... why should someone who turns out regularly be penalised to make life easier for someone who does only a handful of events each year?
Remember ... to finish first, you first have to finish, (and to finish you have to start!).
in my opinion your damm right andrew, cheers arnie
ReplyDeleteI don't see that pre 73 cars would be a disaster for class 2, in fact the complete opposite, Bill, John and Adrian would easily hold there own in class 2 and if anyone does start to enter on a regular basis and clearly is punching above there weight they can be asked to move to another class that would suit there chosen car, ie mexico to class 3.
ReplyDeleteThe idea behind the suggestion is to try and coax out a few older cars who do not want to go to great lengths to compete but can enter a one day trial without restarts and poss easier start lines.
Dave - Then what's wrong with a proper Class 0 (see my 25-Jun email above) for these cars? Why mess-around with Class 2? Andrew.
ReplyDeleteWas trying to build class2 up, as the current class structure was set some 30 years ago and as time goes by less and less come out to play. As the government set a cut of point this seems like a good idea to bring class 2 numbers up and at the same time bring in new comers without the CoCs having to cater for them.
ReplyDeleteI can't see many people wanting to take "standard" pre 73 road cars up classic sections no matter what class they are in. Can you?? They don't get any smoother just because you are in class 2.....
ReplyDeleteDave - You are correct about the very small numbers in Class 2 in ACTC events, but look at the entries in Class 0 in the Exeter, Clee Hills, Mechanics, and Lands End for this year. That class, in those events, has lots of pre-73 (or at least the model type was first available pre-73) cars that would probably not want to come-out-to-play in Class 2 with its much rougher sections.
ReplyDelete"I do like Graham's idea of a Class 9..........I'd make it for all the "1300cc" Beetles. In fact I'd put all Beetles and derivatives in there where they could play a guessing game with each other!"
ReplyDeleteCare to expand on that? Are you saying there are many "1300" beetles that are not "1300" ?
I am not siding with Nigel's implications about 1300cc Beetles at all BUT it does make my point about not subdividing classes on cc as its virtually impossible to police. As I understand it, at present Class 4 is the only class where increasing capacity beyone the limit is possible so lets not introduce that into other classes please. In my humble opinion things appear to be about right for competitors and organisers as well and Class 0, however it is interpreted would appear to attract some extra competitors. Puerly from the Northern point of view, we will have to publicise ourselves possibly more than some others need to and the makeup of the competitors could be different from other trials ie; more Class 0 and bikes. A point that has been made to me is about reduced B&B rates if we could negotiate it. Perhaps some would like to comment, possibly by a personal message so I dont totally highjack this thread all about the Northern!!!!
ReplyDeleteTTFN
Myke
Is there any ACTC / MCC promotional work done at the various motorsport / classic car shows, - visual Stands , Videos etc ?
ReplyDeleteAs Trialing is a relatively cheap form of motorsport and generally good value for money , these Shows might be the places to advertise and promote the various Clubs 'entry level' Trials that incorporate ' clubmans/ 0 / type classes ?
At least beginners would be pointed to the events that wouldn't put them off before they've had chance to have a bit of fun
I think one of the best comments to date, to emerge from this discussion forum has been 'share the knowledge'
ReplyDeleteWe all have our little tweeks that we like to keep to ourselves but when I started trialing [ & entered far more events than i do now ] many years ago It seemed that fellow competitors were only to willing to suggest how machinery could be improved upon.
Other comments suggest altering the class structure
I think best leave that one until numbers start to grow again.
Picking up on Carl's comment, how about the ACTC and/or MCC producing a fairly simple promotional DVD? I know there could be all sorts of complications as there have been warning comments about footage on Youtube that could put the sport in a poor light. However with some careful selection of footage both in and out of car and a sympathetic and descriptive voiceover I am sure something could be done. Not everyone has seen the Fifth Gear stuff anyway. Just another thought out loud.
ReplyDeleteACTC has been to shows in the past, and the effort involved by who ever volunteers to organise doesn't seem to be rewarded by any improvement in numbers of competitors. A promo DVD has also ben considered, but the production of a quality item that is going to achieve its end result is not going to be cheap, but if we had a volunteer who knows this industry well enough to do the job properly then its still up for consideration.
ReplyDeleteAny increase in numbers becoming involved will only be slow whatever methods are used to publicise trials. It might be an alternative for active trials drivers to approach the grass root car clubs who do not run any form of trial to perhaps point out that one day grass slope non damaging trialling is actually quite cheap compared to many other forms of motor sport. Someone already interested in motoring might be easier to persuade that trials can be good fun and come along and try it. Whatever, don't expect a sudden influx of competitors.
ReplyDeleteIMHO as a relative 'newcomer / outsider', but keen 'armchair follower', I echo Robin's viewpoint above. I percieve part of the problem with the Northern Trial and low entry numbers, is the absence of other Classics held in the region - save VSCC.. I can understand that one Classic a year is insufficient to encourage 'locals' into the sport. There needs to be at least another 4 or 5 within Cumbria / Northumberland / Borders to generate local interest. - And unlike my .'neck-of-the-woods', there exists excellent trialling terrain! - A case for promotion (and perhaps the DVD) to other motor clubs within the region.
ReplyDeleteJohn..
Hi again gang, sorry if it looks like I am ignoring the questions but it has been a hectic week, so here goes:-
ReplyDeleteSimon; we choose to the drive local events as for us it is a family sport, my daughters usually passenger and since they attend school on Saturdays until quite late we simply can't go further afield at the moment. I ride some of the events further away on my bike to check out their suitability for the family Beetle in the future.
Andrew; I was simply making the point (badly) that you need the majority of entrants to have a good day as these are the ones that will come back. Obviously you don't want half the entry on clean but it is all about striking a balance.
Just to add another point, I have spoken with two former Class 2 entrants this week, both said they didn't compete in ACTC events anymore because the hills had got too rough.
ReplyDeleteI guess this is kind of inevitable to a certain extent, there are a limited number of suitable hills and using them is bound to impact on their condition.
The Isle of Man faced a similar problem with it's excellent network of green lanes being damaged, they introduced a number of measures including weight limits on some lanes.
Could it be that the use of ever more powerful cars with ever more ballast is accelerating the deterioration in the condition of some hills?
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that in the future there may have to be weight and/or power limits imposed in order to:
1. protect the resources that we have and
2. provide some positive PR or at least stem the flow of negative publicity in the form of YouTube videos of high power cars running against the rev-limiter producing a smog of tyre smoke.
We might end up with events where competitors drive around from one farm to another to compete on man-made 'hills' up the side of a field!
Perhaps this is worthy of a separate discussion? Mr Manager, feel free to post this to a new thread!
Martin - "I have spoken with two former Class 2 entrants this week"
ReplyDeleteComments citing unattributable sources are worthless and not welcome in this forum.
Are you stirring just for the sake of it?
Michael
Can someone definitavely answer this one? What is the evidence that Youtube footage has a negative publicity effect? Is it that someone within the trialling fraternity ASSUMED that or have there been complaints? After all, tyre smoke and high power are something that drag racing has in abundance. Is it simply with trialling that this happens in the countryside and not on a tarmac strip?
ReplyDeleteJust read your post Michael after I answered as above. Not picking upon Martins comment at all but it does realy back up my point that negative publicity must be attributed to someone to be valid. SO, where did it originally come from?
ReplyDeleteOK - Re YouTube (although this is getting slightly off-topic I think). I can't recall the EXACT circumstances but Stroud had a local (although, if I recall correctly, he actually lived some distance away) objecting to the use of the Crawley section on the Clouds and he cited YouTube footage as a reason why he didn't want "hooligans ruining the countryside". This was a couple of years ago and I don't think the problem has re-occurred.
ReplyDeleteOn tyre smoke in general, this has been raised by the MSA as something to be minimised in the continuing effort to prevent motorsport from looking "anti-green". I'll find the exact reference if I can.
I'll stay off-topic rather than starting a new thread ...
ReplyDeleteThe MSA produced a document titled "Motorsport and the Environment" in November 2008. This was discussed at length at a subsequent MSA Trials Committee meeting and reported to the ACTC Council Meeting on 10th May 2009. The minutes of the ACTC Council Meeting state "Regulations should point out that smoke must be limited."
OK?
Maybe I am making 2 + 2 = 5 , but is not an 'unbreakable' diff likely to result in more tyre smoke? I await to be corrected.
ReplyDeletei think you are making 5 out of 4 cheers arnie
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me if I am wrong but some of the clips on you tube of smoking wheels actually shows that the car has ceased forward motion, or in some cases has dropped back slightly before moving off. I thought that stopping forward motion was a failure of the hill. I know this puts an onerous responsibility on the marshals but that surely is what they are there for, and I have done my fair share in the past! Unfortunately smoking my rear tyres in my Dellow is something I find hard to reproduce!
ReplyDeleteNot stirring at all Michael, they were both competitors who had been trialling for many years. I think age of both driver and vehicle may have played a part!
ReplyDeleteThe issue of tyre smoke has been raised before although I am not sure of the exact meaning of this part of the MSA regs:-
Results:
7.1 Judges may be appointed to adjudicate on:
7.1.7 Unauthorised smoking
Does this mean no Cuban Cigars :-)
I have riding green lanes for 35 years and have met many folk, mostly friendly but the hostile ones always play the noise card, I think noise is more likely to get us into trouble!
Just picking up Carls point on promotion, if you Google 'Car Trials' the ACTC website does not appear on the first page of results, if you search "Classic Car Trials' it is the first result, maybe it may be useful to broaden the content so the website appears in the first page of results for 'Car Trials'. Also, perhaps see if the BTRDA would link to the ACTC website.
ReplyDeleteI think, these days, a good web presence is the key to successful promotion, most people look to the web as their primary source of information.
Martin - I repeat - Comments citing unattributable sources are worthless and not welcome in this forum.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Sorry Michael, but I thought it might be a benefit to relay those opinions especially as Class 2 looks very undersubscribed, I really don't know why more VSCC triallers don't compete outside of the VSCC events.
ReplyDeleteYes Martin, the opinions would be very interesting and potentially useful. Why not get the OK from the people concerned to use their names in the quotes then all is well with me. The founding principle of this forum is people can say what they like provided we all know who they are. Likewise quotes from 3rd parties must be attributed. I believe this is the reason why I have never had to edit or delete a post since I introduced this rule soon after starting this thing in the 90's.
ReplyDeleteMichael
that's the nature of drug addiction --
ReplyDeletealways trying to replicate the first 'high'
try something else other than old tyres in your pipe
Now please bear with me on this, it might sound insane or completely stupid but here goes: how about, to bring some more entrants into class2, instead of saying pre 41 cars, we use combined age of car and driver = 100 years, go on then, everyone laugh!,
ReplyDeleteBill Bennet in his class2 MG manages to enter , be ultra competitive , AND finish pretty much every single ACTC Trial there is available to enter each year!
ReplyDeleteI don't see much damage on his car !
These 'people' say they're not interested in being competitive but are after a nice day out ,citing damaging sections as an excuse not to enter .....
IF the section is rough SLOW DOWN , if they think its too rough STOP
after all your not trying to be competitive ???!
To 'these people'- ---Stop whinging and enter some events - you never know you might enjoy yourselves!!!??????
There you are folks
ReplyDeletecheck out ebay BMW fully trials prepared for £1000 buy it now
got to be cheap & competitive entry into classic trials ...........
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1986-BMW-318I-Trials-Car-/180692327522?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2a121a1c62
ReplyDelete