The only problem is that if you have a Liege with a Reliant axle and change it to a Suzuki you have altered the axle casing and will have to run in Class 8. Will you not?
whilst I am not a Liege afficionado..[posh for expert]....I do believe the makers specified the Suzuki Supercarry axle, as alterations had to be made to allow their wheels [set for reliant hubs] to fit. As a modern alternative for all those struggling with early, narrow-track axles on specials, and production cars, the Suzuki axle has much to commend it. Its track is around 3 foot 9 inches or so....matches, more or less, that of a Ford Pop axle......and probably, Austin eight, as well. it is a very neat, modern design, with it's own built-in brake lines, nice brakes with good handbrake, etc...plus modern bearing design. The diff is easy to extract if needed, sadly it is only a 2 starwheel diff...but it has a roughly 5:1 ratio. The diffs from the suzuki SJ jeep range have 4 star wheels, but , again sadly, wont accept the van crownwheel...their final drive being considerably lower, as they already sport gearing reductions via the transfer box. I do believe they used the same brake drums, but with an adaptor to accept 5 stud wheels....I had some 16"ers. an alternative to the suzuki van axle might be the SJ80 rear axle? [it's the very early suzuki jeep, from the '70's]....unlike the later suzuki jeeps, this did not have an offset differential.....and is roughly the same narrow track......a very strong differential and shafts can be had for modest sums from American specialist dealers. I have seen it used in certain sporting trials cars [in the making!!]
yes.....me! it works.......have not put excessive power through it though.....had to make up some adapors, I use french michelin 3 stud 15" wheels....nice brakes, easy and cheap to obtain brake shoes..... remember it is a hardy spicer u/j connection, a pop has a torque tube....???? axles may become 'rare' as a lot of suzuki bits are containered up and shipped to Africa....
has anybody measured up,or got the specs for, the axle from the new Suzuki Carry van?...[the new one with the stubby bonnet]. if this is similar in width, then there is a ''new'' source of supplies? [BTW......Simon Woodhall takes a dim view of my suggestion concerning Ford Pops...which was, to utilise that well-unpubliscised rule which apparently allowed pre-'55 cars to use a more modern axle, running in class 3?....He made it plain, it DOESN'T mean I could pop a Suzuki axle underneath a Pop......]
If you look on the ACTC website at Class 7 kitcar spec sheets you will find the Liege has the Reliant axle, an "A" series axle and the Suzuki Carry/ Bedford Rascal axle all approved as alternatives. As has been said already, the Suzuki Carry and Bedford Rascal are one in the same, (badge engineering). This is a strong axle with halfshafts thicker than a land rover !! The standard ratio on the 1000 cc engined versions is 5.1 : 1 The ratio on the 1300 cc Carry Van 2 is an attractive 4.55 : 1 BUT uses different size (diameter) halfshafts hence the diff and halfshafts would need changing AND probably the bearings too, (but I cannot say for certain on this). I believe the 5.1 cwp could be fitted to the 4 planet wheeled carrier from the SJ410 BUT the carrier would need re-drilling and tapping to accept it as the number of mounting bolts is different AND you would need to be sure you could set the pinion in the correct mesh with the crownwheel. Alaster, re the Citroen wheels, .... presumeably 2CV ? I had considered getting a couple of these myself. How have you fitted them, with a 3 stud to 4 stud adapter, or have you been able to re-drill them appropriately ? Simon
Simon.....my wheels are a mixed bunch, not Citroen 2CV, but wider. [2CV are I think, 4J, these are either 41/2J or 5 J...will check next time I'm outside] They appear to be either Peugeot [404?] or similar, but have several different shapes of slots. they also have a large central hole, which Citroens don't have, they have a domed centre, which got in the way of my front hub bearings. However, whilst likley to be from different makes or models of french car, these Michelin-made wheels have a distinct advantage...they are all stamped with maker, size, build date, etc, around the central hole....so despite the odd shaped holes around the rim, I know they are all identical in size and offset. Plus, being Michelin rims, they have a rounded edge which guides a deflated tyre into the central well, rather than allowing it to flip off the wheel. all of which I know you know, but may be of interest to other readers? For an adaptor, I found the easiest [and most agricultural] solution was an adaptor, 4 stud to 3 stud....bolted to the drum face. for the suzuki axle, I had a slight problem in that, using a lump of steel plate as an adaptor [all drilled on a drill press].....the 4 bolts securing the plate to the suzuki wheelstuds, [through the drum], slightly fouled the inside of the michelin wheels. I shortened the wheel studs, and ended up thinning down the actual nuts, so the wheel could sit flush with the adaptor plate. the 3 wheel studs holding the michelin wheel were located through both adaptor plate AND brake drum.... The obvious solution to the fouling problem would have been a thin wheel spacer, however, I shied away from this for a couple of reasons.... 1.....this would widen the track by something like a couple of inches....wow! 2.....I felt there would be an excessive strain placed upon the hub bearings by this sort of setup...a common complaint with wheel spacers. I adapted Citroen wheel nuts to fix the wheels on...these come with a large ''oval'' rotating washer, which actually locates the wheel. since I didn't use metric studs, but made my own up, I severed washers from Citroen wheel nuts, and they are simply 'trapped' under my own nuts...so to speak.
re the SJ410 diff, and van crownwheel, my chum Pete Hutton and I have done some experimenting......as I recall, the van crownwheel not only has a different bolt hole pattern, but it is slightly different in bolt hole diameter..ie the circle.....the diff would need significant machining to fit that crown wheel....sadly.
How is it that liege supplied with a reliant axle can change to a Suzuki axle and stay in the same class yet a Dellow supplied with an E93A if it changes to a 105E goes up a Class?
Nothing to do with Dellow not originally SPECIFYING an Anglia axle? why did Dellow not specify the 100E axle? or did they actually cease production before that was first made?
Could I just remind everyone that both Dellows and Lieges "fail" the two basic criteria for a Class 7(c) car - wheelbase over 90", relationship of seats to rear wheels - and the ACTC Specifications for these cars are tightly-written to ensure that neither has an unfair advantage over the kit cars that do comply with these two criteria. Lieges are most definitely a "kit car" and, as such, must run with the engines, gearboxes, back axles, etc. that the manufacturers specified. A parallel example exists with Marlins. All the more recent models of the Roadster offer far superior engines and gearboxes to the ones approved for Class 7, but most of these cars were Sierra-based and the suspension is just not "up" to trialling. So it's simple, Marina-based Roadsters must run with one of the engine options originally offered, Sierra-based Roadsters can run with one of the engines (Zetec etc.) that were offered with this option but must have Sierra running gear. I strongly suspect that if the original Liege had been based on different mechanicals from the start it would never have been offered the concession of running in Class 7. Dellows have presented a "problem" for years and the current status quo - a tight specification for "original" cars in Class 7, otherwise it's Class 8 - has been generally accepted by the Dellow contingent. Julian Dommett proved that an 1172cc Dellow could be a Class 7 winner many years ago, it's just that very few owners choose to come-out-to-play in Class 7, preferring to run in Class 0 for cars which would be Class 7 eligible, or making the modifications which make transfer to Class 8 inevitable. End of sermon (as Simon Woodall would say). Andrew
Mark, I should also have referred you to the Liege website, and not just the ACTC site. The inference in your last mail was on the Liege being allowed to "change" axle to something other than that supplied by the manufacturer. Not so as you will see if you look on the website. In fact the Suzuki / Bedford axle is the standard axle from the manufacturer and has been since fairly early in production. SimonR
I can confirm that 52 Liege have the 'Liege final design' Suzuki 850 Carry axle. The Reliant Robin/Kitten axle and the narrowed BMC "A" series axle never made it far past the early development stage. Peter Davis Liege Motor Company Courtesy of Haynes 850 Suzuki Carry/Beford Rascal manual:
if you don't win it, I have two more..but without the springs...which you don't want anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe
ReplyDeleteonly problem is that if you have a Liege with a Reliant axle and change it to a Suzuki you have altered the
axle casing and will have to run in Class 8. Will you not?
Mudplugger2
-----Original
Message-----
From: Alastairqueen1 [mailto:alastairqueen@mylobsterpot.co.uk]
Sent: 01 June 2008 10:50
To: Classical Gas, For Trials
enthusiasts
Subject: Re: Need a Suzuki Axle
for your Liege?
New Message on Classical Gas,
For Trials enthusiasts
Need a Suzuki Axle for your Liege?
Reply
whilst I am not a Liege afficionado..[posh for expert]....I do believe the makers specified the Suzuki Supercarry axle, as alterations had to be made to allow their wheels [set for reliant hubs] to fit. As a modern alternative for all those struggling with early, narrow-track axles on specials, and production cars, the Suzuki axle has much to commend it. Its track is around 3 foot 9 inches or so....matches, more or less, that of a Ford Pop axle......and probably, Austin eight, as well. it is a very neat, modern design, with it's own built-in brake lines, nice brakes with good handbrake, etc...plus modern bearing design. The diff is easy to extract if needed, sadly it is only a 2 starwheel diff...but it has a roughly 5:1 ratio. The diffs from the suzuki SJ jeep range have 4 star wheels, but , again sadly, wont accept the van crownwheel...their final drive being considerably lower, as they already sport gearing reductions via the transfer box. I do believe they used the same brake drums, but with an adaptor to accept 5 stud wheels....I had some 16"ers. an alternative to the suzuki van axle might be the SJ80 rear axle? [it's the very early suzuki jeep, from the '70's]....unlike the later suzuki jeeps, this did not have an offset differential.....and is roughly the same narrow track......a very strong differential and shafts can be had for modest sums from American specialist dealers. I have seen it used in certain sporting trials cars [in the making!!]
ReplyDeleteI was following a Vauxhall Rascal van today and that track
ReplyDeletelooked about the same as a Pop. Has anyone any experience of using this axle?
Mudplugger2
yes.....me! it works.......have not put excessive power through it though.....had to make up some adapors, I use french michelin 3 stud 15" wheels....nice brakes, easy and cheap to obtain brake shoes..... remember it is a hardy spicer u/j connection, a pop has a torque tube....???? axles may become 'rare' as a lot of suzuki bits are containered up and shipped to Africa....
ReplyDeleteHello Mark,
ReplyDeleteThe Bedford Rascal and Suzuki Carry are the same vehicle, made by Suzuki.
Michael
The Vauxhall/Bedford Rascal and Suzuki carry are the same van with a
ReplyDeletedifferent badge.
Les
has anybody measured up,or got the specs for, the axle from the new Suzuki Carry van?...[the new one with the stubby bonnet]. if this is similar in width, then there is a ''new'' source of supplies? [BTW......Simon Woodhall takes a dim view of my suggestion concerning Ford Pops...which was, to utilise that well-unpubliscised rule which apparently allowed pre-'55 cars to use a more modern axle, running in class 3?....He made it plain, it DOESN'T mean I could pop a Suzuki axle underneath a Pop......]
ReplyDeleteIf you look on the ACTC website at Class 7 kitcar spec sheets you will find the Liege has the Reliant axle, an "A" series axle and the Suzuki Carry/ Bedford Rascal axle all approved as alternatives. As has been said already, the Suzuki Carry and Bedford Rascal are one in the same, (badge engineering). This is a strong axle with halfshafts thicker than a land rover !! The standard ratio on the 1000 cc engined versions is 5.1 : 1 The ratio on the 1300 cc Carry Van 2 is an attractive 4.55 : 1 BUT uses different size (diameter) halfshafts hence the diff and halfshafts would need changing AND probably the bearings too, (but I cannot say for certain on this). I believe the 5.1 cwp could be fitted to the 4 planet wheeled carrier from the SJ410 BUT the carrier would need re-drilling and tapping to accept it as the number of mounting bolts is different AND you would need to be sure you could set the pinion in the correct mesh with the crownwheel. Alaster, re the Citroen wheels, .... presumeably 2CV ? I had considered getting a couple of these myself. How have you fitted them, with a 3 stud to 4 stud adapter, or have you been able to re-drill them appropriately ? Simon
ReplyDeleteSimon.....my wheels are a mixed bunch, not Citroen 2CV, but wider. [2CV are I think, 4J, these are either 41/2J or 5 J...will check next time I'm outside] They appear to be either Peugeot [404?] or similar, but have several different shapes of slots. they also have a large central hole, which Citroens don't have, they have a domed centre, which got in the way of my front hub bearings. However, whilst likley to be from different makes or models of french car, these Michelin-made wheels have a distinct advantage...they are all stamped with maker, size, build date, etc, around the central hole....so despite the odd shaped holes around the rim, I know they are all identical in size and offset. Plus, being Michelin rims, they have a rounded edge which guides a deflated tyre into the central well, rather than allowing it to flip off the wheel. all of which I know you know, but may be of interest to other readers? For an adaptor, I found the easiest [and most agricultural] solution was an adaptor, 4 stud to 3 stud....bolted to the drum face. for the suzuki axle, I had a slight problem in that, using a lump of steel plate as an adaptor [all drilled on a drill press].....the 4 bolts securing the plate to the suzuki wheelstuds, [through the drum], slightly fouled the inside of the michelin wheels. I shortened the wheel studs, and ended up thinning down the actual nuts, so the wheel could sit flush with the adaptor plate. the 3 wheel studs holding the michelin wheel were located through both adaptor plate AND brake drum.... The obvious solution to the fouling problem would have been a thin wheel spacer, however, I shied away from this for a couple of reasons.... 1.....this would widen the track by something like a couple of inches....wow! 2.....I felt there would be an excessive strain placed upon the hub bearings by this sort of setup...a common complaint with wheel spacers. I adapted Citroen wheel nuts to fix the wheels on...these come with a large ''oval'' rotating washer, which actually locates the wheel. since I didn't use metric studs, but made my own up, I severed washers from Citroen wheel nuts, and they are simply 'trapped' under my own nuts...so to speak.
ReplyDeletere the SJ410 diff, and van crownwheel, my chum Pete Hutton and I have done some experimenting......as I recall, the van crownwheel not only has a different bolt hole pattern, but it is slightly different in bolt hole diameter..ie the circle.....the diff would need significant machining to fit that crown wheel....sadly.
ReplyDeleteHow is it that liege supplied with a reliant axle can change
ReplyDeleteto a Suzuki axle and stay in the same class yet a Dellow supplied with an E93A
if it changes to a 105E goes up a Class?
Mudplugger2
Nothing to do with Dellow not originally SPECIFYING an Anglia axle? why did Dellow not specify the 100E axle? or did they actually cease production before that was first made?
ReplyDeleteCould I just remind everyone that both Dellows and Lieges "fail" the two basic criteria for a Class 7(c) car - wheelbase over 90", relationship of seats to rear wheels - and the ACTC Specifications for these cars are tightly-written to ensure that neither has an unfair advantage over the kit cars that do comply with these two criteria. Lieges are most definitely a "kit car" and, as such, must run with the engines, gearboxes, back axles, etc. that the manufacturers specified. A parallel example exists with Marlins. All the more recent models of the Roadster offer far superior engines and gearboxes to the ones approved for Class 7, but most of these cars were Sierra-based and the suspension is just not "up" to trialling. So it's simple, Marina-based Roadsters must run with one of the engine options originally offered, Sierra-based Roadsters can run with one of the engines (Zetec etc.) that were offered with this option but must have Sierra running gear. I strongly suspect that if the original Liege had been based on different mechanicals from the start it would never have been offered the concession of running in Class 7. Dellows have presented a "problem" for years and the current status quo - a tight specification for "original" cars in Class 7, otherwise it's Class 8 - has been generally accepted by the Dellow contingent. Julian Dommett proved that an 1172cc Dellow could be a Class 7 winner many years ago, it's just that very few owners choose to come-out-to-play in Class 7, preferring to run in Class 0 for cars which would be Class 7 eligible, or making the modifications which make transfer to Class 8 inevitable. End of sermon (as Simon Woodall would say). Andrew
ReplyDeleteMark, I should also have referred you to the Liege website, and not just the ACTC site. The inference in your last mail was on the Liege being allowed to "change" axle to something other than that supplied by the manufacturer. Not so as you will see if you look on the website. In fact the Suzuki / Bedford axle is the standard axle from the manufacturer and has been since fairly early in production. SimonR
ReplyDeleteI can confirm that 52 Liege have the 'Liege final design' Suzuki 850 Carry axle. The Reliant Robin/Kitten axle and the narrowed BMC "A" series axle never made it far past the early development stage. Peter Davis Liege Motor Company Courtesy of Haynes 850 Suzuki Carry/Beford Rascal manual:
ReplyDeletenice blog~!
ReplyDeletehand held vacuum cleaners