In a previous posting I commented on the Red Pop that jumped the queue at Hoskins. I would like to come back to this. Was he breaking the rules?
We saw the three Pop’s at the Cattle Market and I even helped the Red one pull a cone he ran over from under his car. On the way to Hoskin we saw him (Red upright Ford Popular, Number 254, registration number 746 ECV, crewed by Harvey Waters/Norman Tomkin) stopped by the roadside with his head under the bonnet. We were in a long queue for Hoskins and saw the other two Pop’s some twenty cars ahead when they had their go at the hill. There were at least fifteen cars ahead and half a dozen cars behind us when the Red Pop arrived, but instead of taking his place at the back,drove straight to the front of the queue, attempted the section (which he failed) and joined his mates.
I was so astonished I didn’t say anything to him but my buddy Neil Bray had a few words at the Flambards holding control as the same guy had also jumped in front on Neil on the Exeter. The driver told Neil he "was running a team and needed to get back in formation". He was bit sheepish which is more than can be said for his passenger who was very lippy.
Questions.
- Were they breaking the rules or just convention?
- Should the marshal at the foot of Hoskin have allowed them to go to the front?
- What should you do if you see this happen?
- Does anyone think they did no wrong?
I would be interested to hear other people’s opinions.
Michael
I have no knowledge of the rules with respect to this sort of situation but it does seem to me that jumping queues like this is very bad manners and what I like about classic trials and triallers is that although we are all competing we do care about our fellow competitors. I can appreciate that if you are in a team it is nice to run together in formation but surely those in front should wait for any team member who is delayed to achieve this. I can imagine that I wouldn’t feel too bad if in order to keep a team together a competitor needed to pass a small number of others provided they had the courtesy to ask but to sail past 15 without so much as a by-your-leave would not go down well with me as it clearly didn’t with those who witnessed this incident.I will be interested to hear if any rules were broken but I think at least a quiet word from a club official is needed.Tony
ReplyDeleteI agree with the previous reply regarding courtesy etc. I think that a competitor who asked to be allowed to go in front would be allowed to do so if they had adequate reason. Remember Mick Workman on the Allen?Whether the rules forbid pushing in is probably a matter of interpretation, but if you look at the MCC SSRs, which are on their web site then Section P, OBSERVED SECTIONS says: (fifth paragraph)"Single file in order of arrival must be maintained"From that regulation I believe that the rule was broken.Incidentally, if a member of a team breaks down when the team are running together isn't it the normal practice for the team to stop en bloc and offer assistance?Chris Phillips
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with all the comments so far. There are times when you need to pass or another competitor needs to pass you, then it seems that a polite request is the way to do it.On the Clee Hill, where they were threatening time penalties, we and several others wrong slotted, but at the next hill we were waved back into our correct order by other competitors. It was all done in the most gentlemanly way! My impression of classic trials is one of a polite gentleman like sport, the agression and push is saved for the hills not the queues. I think a reminder of this shold go in the next 'Triple' and 'Restart'.Can I repeat how good I thought the Lands End finish venue was.Stuart Harrold
ReplyDeleteDiverging a little from the theme, I notice from the results that my friend Tom Beckerleg lost a silver for being late at Widemouth. This was effectively for staying with me when I got flooded in the lane before cancelled Stoney Street, Roy Opie would have been late as well but was not shown as such in the results as he failed one to many sections (although his footing at Flambards would have counted as non counting in class D I would have thought).
ReplyDeleteIt would have been difficult for Tom to have made up much time , I believe that quite a few car drivers waved him through (I really did delay them quite a bit!). Tom , ever, the gentleman would not have dreamed of winding it on a bit and I feel pretty dreadful at the outcome. I was certainly greatful for the tow to civilisation from Roy Opie.
Just looking thru' LE results. Congratulations to Giles on class 4 win. Also to Falcons David Thompson for his class 8 win.The results pose many questions. My buddy Simon Robson lost an award by being late helping the Leiges get thru the trial. I see the Pop got a silver. I wonder if he would have lost his award if he had stayed in line?I see quite a few people got "done" for jumping the gun on the Daracott re-start and for not obeying the marxhals instructions on Cutliffe. Was this for not lifting off?Then what about the fails on special test you can't get a fail on?Then I see we have some awards held over for Clerk of the Courses reports. Looks like the committee are in for several nights in smoke filled rooms to decide the fate of nations. I wonder if its like the election of the pope when the colour of the smoke changes when they have reached their decision?All good stuff. I wonder if we will ever know.btw - I have heard two LE 2001 rumours:-There has discussion about moving the finish back to Newquay if the town can be persueded to have us and to move the event away from the Easter week-end.Michael
ReplyDeleteAs one of those who got done for jumping the gun on Darracott I can only say that it's a fair cop guv but I have noticed a wide variation of behavior of restart marshalls on both MCC and other trials and was meaning to write something about it. While in the bad old days of tomed restarts the flag would be held high and dropped decisively and I'm sure the Marshall on Darracott was adhering to this on anumber of other occasions I have been greeted with a peremptory wave of the flag or even the hand the hand or just an "OK". I do believe that the restart marshalls should be briefed to be decisive with their flags having first established eye contact with the driver and of course idots like me who jump the gun should be penalised.Tony
ReplyDeleteRe the spelling on the previous. Sorry clicked on Send before checking it.Tony
ReplyDeleteThe Lands End Committee is aware of the Pop incident, and the Clerk of the Course spoke informally to the offender's Team Captain on the Sunday after the event.The problem seems to arise from a West Country philosophy that Running Order is sacrosanct and that competitors should do all that they can to maintain correct Running Order. It is their organisers way of trying to deal with the problem of Hanging Back. In MCC events, it is the Time Card that is important and so long as you are within your time allowance actual order is less important than courtesy to your collegues.In the words of the great Jackie Stewart when telling off one of his more boysterous younger collegues:
ReplyDelete"We no drive like tha' in Gran Pree"
It is very difficult to comment on these matters with only thirdhand information to go on. For instance, can we be sure that he did not ask any other competitor if they minded him catching up? The original report made it sound as if, on arrival, he drove straight to the front of the queue, let his tyres down whilst blocking the hill, exposed his arse, then stuck his fingers up at those behind him. I find it hard to believe that somebody in our sport would have behaved as described without consulting sufficient of those around them.It was clearly not done to gain advantage on the section as such a large number of competitors had already attempted it beforehand, so to make him out to be an ill-mannered cheat seems somewhat inappropriate.I would also like to point out that Neil Bray is a fine one to talk when it comes to criticising other peoples behaviour behind the wheel. He and his friend in a cream Marlin nearly caused a serious RTA on this years Lands End when they tried to overtake us and the cars we were following just before a blind corner on the twisty route between Taunton and Minehead. Neil overtook us then very nearly ran into the back of the Skoda we were following when it was forced to avoid some deep standing water. The Marlin had simply followed in Neil's tracks, so was alongside myself leaving me no option but to hit the water and battle to maintain control.No appology was made at the breakfast halt, so I ask you, what is worse, getting back in order on request at the bottom of a section or risking bringing the sport into disrepute by dangerous driving on the highways? If anything had come round the corner, we can only imagine what would have happened.
ReplyDeleteWhat I found very interesting about the results was that the four entrants that were excluded for 'NOT obeying the Marshal' were all at Cutliffe and all between 287 and 299. Not a very large section of the total list.The problems were happening, I believe, as we were coming down the steep lane to the start. We heard at least two cars making a lot of noise and doing it for a fairly long time, interspersed with shouts of 'STOP', presumably from the marshal.We had a word with one of the people who were excluded at the lunch halt, Chris Bale in his class 8 VW.He had decided to retire, mainly, he said because he was disgusted at the marshal who "jumped in front of my car at Cutliffe and forced me to stop while I was still moving forward".Chris
ReplyDeleteIn reply to Escort. As the report writer I did see the Red Pop jump the queue. No he didn't ask - I was watching - and yes in my opinion when you have trial where you can be excluded for being late he did cheat and his passenger (but not the driver) was to say the least impolite when Neil Bray spoke to him at Flambards. (I heard what he said but don't wish to use those words in print).Regarding Neil Bray - knowing Neil for over 30 years he does "push on" to say the least. He doesn't surf the net himself but I would be happy to pass on your views to him if you would like me to.One more thing - Could I (as the community manager) ask you to let us know your real name - either in your postings or in your member profile. This is a pretty laid back sort of place and although Tony signs himself as Tony we all know he is Tony Branson, Giles is Giles Greenslade etc.I hope you don't mind but it is the convention here and it would be super if you could go along with it.Your views are very welcome - whether I or anyone else agree with them - put I would like posters to put their real name please.Michael Leete
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