I have received this Email from Tim Considine. Can we help?
"I have happily 'stumbled onto' your site whilst searching the Internet for Lewis Welch. I'm a writer, a contributing editor for the U.S. magazine Road & Track, but now doing a non-R&T-related story for the Collier Museum in Florida. I'm writing a history of one of their cars, MG PA/PB JB 6157 (chassis number 1667), one of the three MGs (#57) run under Captain Eyston at Le Mans in 1935 by an all-women's team of drivers and later bought, crashed on the road, rebodied and driven in the States by Miles Collier, who also drove it at Le Mans with Lewis Welch in '1939 (Collier is sometimes confused with the Brit Michael Collier in records).
Specifically, what I'm looking for is any information about whether the car was driven competitively by anyone prior to Le Mans and if so, by whom, where and to what effect. Was it tested at Brooklands before Le Mans or run in any trials, etc? Also, after Le Mans, the car was repainted in the colors of Cream Cracker and The Three Musketeers and allegedly driven in trials. But I can find no records over here in 'the colonies' of these competitions. Again, it would be great to know if that particular car were run and where, under what number and by whom.
Welch was one of the prominent Three Musketeers, I gather. I wonder if he ever drove it before it was sold to Miles Collier in October, 1935 The Musketeers also experimented with Marshall superchargers in '35, apparently to great benefit. Again, I wonder if 6157 ever had a blower in competition, as it was delivered to Collier with one - at his request, it's written here, but who knows.
Any light that could be thrown on these questions or contact information for someone who might know would be very much appreciated, as this kind of detail from so far back is very hard to come by here, particularly for such an esoteric form of the sport as trials.
Regardless, congratulations on your website. What a treasure."
I believe the cars were built specially to compete a Le Mans, so probably did not compete anywhere else before that event. They were PAs, but given PB sized engines afterwards and used as Musketeer team cars, probably for one event, the Torquay Rally of 1935, all gaining Silver (second) awards.
ReplyDeleteThere is a picture of Nash on Simms Hill, in JB6158, the drivers on the event being himself, Welch and Kindell, so Welch was in either JB 6157 or JB 6156... It seems the blower was fitted expressly for Sam and Miles Collier.
If you pose your question on Triple-mregister.org, the home for these cars, you will probably get much more info...much of the forgoing came from the Triple-M Yearbook for 2004, but there is all sorts of info in other yearbooks...
Graham
An MG friend says this is one of the George Eyston "Dancing Daughters" team cars and suggests that you contact Stewart Penfold , who is the "Specials" expert for the "T" Register. stewart.penfound@btinternet.com
ReplyDeleteThank you so much, gentlemen, for your help. I wonder, is there a date for the Torquay Rally of 1935? That event was mentioned as contested by the three ex-Le Mans cars in MG by McComb, the MG book by F.Wilson McComb. TC
ReplyDeleteIn MG Trials cars by Roger Thomas there is a photo of JB 6157 at a practice session for LeMans at Brooklands (p 35). They were green for racing but repainted cream/brown and engines enlarged (by reboring) to PB spec for the Torquay Rally "at the end of July" (1935). Thats as accurate as the date gets. The 27th July was a Saturday by the way - could that be the date?
ReplyDeleteThe book goes on the say that JB 6157 and JB 6158 were insured short term for Bastock and Mcdermid (resp) for a meeting at Brooklands in Sept 1935.
Graham you are bang on - according to Donald Cowbourne's book it was from 26th-28th July... All the info I have found is in separate books - there is no one definitive source! Wheelspin by C.A.N. May has a bit - including info on Welch, Roger Thomas' book and Cowbourne, as mentioned, and assorted MGCC Triple-M Yearbooks (I was editor at one time so know them well...)
ReplyDeleteTim, I see you found the Triple-M website - see if that trawls up anything new!
Good luck
Graham
I have looked in "The Works MG's" by Mike Allison and Peter Browning. isbn 0 85960 603 2
ReplyDeleteOn page 136 it says "Late in 1934 a second team of cars were entered by the Factory for trials under the Three Musketeer banner. These cars were the ex-Dancing daughter cars from LeMans, and were in fact prototype PB cars. Drivers were to be Sam Nash, Alec Hounslow and Fred Kindell, and this team entered the Torquay Rally and won the Team Award. This had the effect of selling these three cars, which had been stuck at the Factory since LeMans unloved and unwanted....."
There is a picture of JB6158 on Simms.
Perhaps there is some confusion between 1934 and 1935
The 'Dancing Daughters' definitely competed at Le Mans only in 1935, so it has to be the 1935 Torquay Rally. Donald Cowbourne shows Kindell, Nash and Welch as drivers of three MGs, and as these were regular Musketeer drivers I have assumed that they were in the Le Mans cars...there were other MGs but none fit the bill quite so well.
ReplyDeleteGraham
I think the 3 Le Mans P-types were used as interim Musketeers after MG stopped using the re-bodied NEs and before the works-built L specials were completed at the end of August 1935. Initially the Musketeer specials were driven by the works drivers before being taken over by Macdermid, Bastock and Langley when the trials rules on works cars/drivers were changed.
ReplyDeleteThe re-bodied NEs took part in the Welsh Motor Rally (16th to 20th July), Welch 54, Nash 55 and Kindell 56. To confirm what Graham A has said, a week later the repainted ex-Le Mans cars took part in the Torquay Trial and Rally, 26th and 27th July, 1935. Drivers and numbers were identical to those used in the Welsh Rally, and the cars for the Torquay were listed as MG Midget 847cc. This information comes from the official programmes of the events.
John Reid
Thank you, gentlemen. So, the main questions still of particular interest to me would be did Lewis Welch drive at Torquay and if so, what car did he drive and what number would that have been? Who drove JB 6157, the number, etc?
ReplyDeleteThanks for your help, TC
Oh, forgot to ask (writers always have too many questions), were the Three Musketeer names, Athos, Porthos, and Aramis, ever assigned either officially or in publications to either the cars or drivers? If so, what was JB 6157, I wonder?
ReplyDeleteAgain, thanks so much for taking the time to help an ignorant scribe from across the pond (the Colonies, you know). TC
Hello Tim,
ReplyDeleteI have also posted a reply on the Triple-M Register website.
Yes, Lewis Welch drove in the Torquay - see my earlier reply. He was No54 and departed London at 11.24am, followed by Nash and Kindell. My programme does not list registration numbers so cannot confirm the car by this route.
The Three Musketeer name was applied to cars not drivers. I am fairly certain that the repainted Le Mans cars were never painted with Athos Porthos and Aramis on the bonnet, although they had the colour scheme of cream bodywork and chocolate mudguards. The rebodied NEs were officially named on the bonnet as were the L-type Musketeer specials and the T-types which replaced them.
A picture of the Welsh Rally Musketeer team of NEs shows the names painted on the bonnet sides just behind the radiator but Thomas is silent on the PA/PB cars. The Magna cars are also credited with the names (no photo) but the description of the colour scheme includes that the names were painted in brown.
ReplyDeleteSo I have no evidence of any name applied to 6157 I'm afraid. I notice that they were used for just the Torquay event as Musketeers.
Tim,
ReplyDeleteIf you go to the pictures/historical section of the Triple-M Register website there is a section called "Musketeer" where you will find photos of the three L specials, COMP/N/1, 2 and 3.
I'm certainly glad I asked here. As you know, I posted my questions at the Triple-M website. So far, 213 people have read it, but the only response is from you, John. But hope springs eternal. There remain a couple of open questions that I'm hoping for further word on. I'd like, if possible somehow, to confirm the driver and number of JB 6157 at Torquay. And I'm really curious to know what horsepower a Marshall supercharged PB would produce. I've read claims of 50% to 65% increase, which seems high. Again, thanks, all, for your help. TC
ReplyDeleteProblem is Tim, we probably have trawled up all the info available by published materials - if anyone has any further info, they will be likely to be looking at the Triple-M web site - but it is a pretty specific request! People didn't really worry too much about reg. numbers and chassis numbers back then, so it may not have been recorded anywhere who drove which car!
ReplyDeleteI'd guess a Marshall blown PB would give about 60 bhp...
cheers
Graham
Oh, believe me, I fully appreciate how specific and arcane the information asked for is. But my experience has been, in this country and again, across the pond on this blog, that this kind of esoteric detail is much more likely to be valued by and thus able to be gleaned from special interest enthusiasts than other writers, historians or pundits. I'm truly grateful to those like yourself who've taken the time to respond. And as I said, hope springs eternal for some other memory of a fact, event or photograph that might further inform me. All the best, TC
ReplyDeleteHello Tim,
ReplyDeleteGraham A like me has a long history of involvement in pre-war MGs and as he suggests, I am sure we are drawing on similar sources of information. However, I support your perseverance! Our good friend Colin Butchers is aware of your posting and I was talking with him earlier today when he told me he was sifting through his archives for information on the Le Mans P-types.
PA or PB engine still needs to be confirmed - if the programme is to be believed then the cars had PA engines for the Torquay Rally. As I said in my Triple-M posting, the programme lists them as "MG Midget 847cc", implying PA rather than PB engines. Allison/Browning say PB (and also Hounslow as a driver, but he is not in the programme), Thomas says PB as does May. So is it a wrong entry in the programme or a perpetuated historical mistake?
I think it is worth you contacting Bob Clare who is the Registrar of the Triple-M Register, as he may have some relevant info on his database. His details are listed in the Contacts section of the Register website.
John R
Wrote Mr. Clare yesterday, per your good advice. Re my "perseverance," a kinder word, perhaps, for doggedness.
ReplyDeleteIn a couple of post-'35 Le Mans issues of MotorSport, an MG ad refers to the three PAs as averaging 50mph over the whole race, including stops. I wonder if there is any idea of the speed at which they lapped during the race? Collier said in his reports that in 1939, Leonidis, which had the benefit of better aerodynamics and probably lighter coachwork, lapped Le Mans at 69 or 70mph and could achieve 95mph (though they held the maximum speed to 77mph). It would be interesting to compare that with the '35 lap times and speeds if that information were accessible.
Again, thanks to you and the group for all the help. TC
According to Thomas, JB6157 was the subject of a letter to Jack Bastock regarding insurance for a Brooklands event in September 1935, (page 35 for serious anoraks) and Bastock's car was always Porthos, But whether the PA/B's were officially named, who knows but if we assume they were, then it would imply that Freddie Kindell was in JB6157 for the Torquay as he drove the NE version of Porthos. Thomas also says that the engines were PA, bored out to PB dimensions, shown in a letter dated 10th July 1935, so it is possible/likely that this task was decided upon after the entries for Torquay had been submitted hence the confusion in the programme.
ReplyDeleteGerald Burridge once implied to me that his blown PB was producing 75bhp.
I think Simon has a point that the entry/programme could have been sorted ahead of the 10th July letter authorising 57 to 60mm pistons, hence the difference. Makes you wonder if MG were doing this as a trial in advance of the 1408 Musketeer specials, which were completed at the end of August. So many questions which remain umanswered!
ReplyDeleteJohn R
On the subject of lap times, I don't know of any recorded, but it is worth re-iterating that the cars were deliberately run at conservative speeds, to ensure qualifying for the Rudge Whitworth Cup in the following year, which of course did not take place. To emphasise this it is worth noting that in the previous year, 1934, the outwardly standard PA of Anne Itier/Leon Duruy finished second in class at 56.73 mph, the fastest Dancing Daughter averaging 53.79 mph...
ReplyDeleteKimber was a pretty good judge, wasn't he? More must have been written about this relatively humble effort than all the other MG exploits put together...well perhaps not, but seventy odd years later and we're still talking about it! Anyone know of any other all female teams at Le Mans?
It was a brilliant PR move. In several recent articles, I've read that the Dancing Daughters won their class, which of course, they didn't. But the legend lives on.
ReplyDeleteI asked this over on Triple-M, as well, re The Three Musketeers circa 1935, was any one driver considered more successful than the others? TC
ReplyDelete