A while back I mentioned that I had purchased the original jig on which all genuine Cannon chassis were built. With the help of Ian Moss it was brought back from Kent (just a few miles from Mike Cannon's home) and it is now in the hands of Steve Holder at Fourtune Engineering. Steve has already built one complete brand new chassis on the jig and repaired another chassis belonging to Josh Moss.
Should you have a genuine chassis needing repair then doing it on the original jig makes a lot of sense.
With a new chassis from this jig and pre-1972 mechanicals you SHOULD be able to legally qualify for tax-free excise duty.
Can you give me an idea of the donor bits required,
ReplyDeleteplease? What 'complete' cars could I start with, or is a Cannon a mixture of all
sorts?
i.e., Ford Anglia, Pop, Moggy 1000, Marina,
etc.
I'd better ask for a ballpark cost of a chassis too,
people are bound to ask so it might as well be me.
Best regards
John
Steve Holders website :- http://www.fourtune-engineering.co.uk/ Donor parts. Initially virtually all Cannons used :- Engine/gearbox. E93A Ford Pop Back axle. Austin 8. This was the very similar to the Morris Minor so that is the obvious choice now. Steering box. Austin 8 typically but Mike Cannon did use other boxes such as Renault and I have owned a Cannon with a Ford Pop box. A box such as the VW with a drop-arm would be a good basis. Front axle/leaf spring. Ford Y-type preferred as it is slightly lighter than a Ford Pop equivalent. Quite a few cars used the Pop one from new. Rear coil springs. Almost certainly made to order as they needed to be quite low rate given the lightness of a Cannon. Front brakes. Standard 8 and Morris Minor were both used. Wheels. 18" rears and 19" pre-war Morris Minor on the front. HOWEVER , evolution, in period, saw a lot more variation. 100E , A-series BMC, pre-crossflow Ford were amongst the engines used. Anglia 105E gearboxes and E93A boxes fitted with some 100E internals to lower ratios were used. Box-section front axle beams were used, as were spring/damper units in place of the transverse leaf spring. All the bodywork is simple single-curvature panels, the exception being the distinctive nose cowling in GRP. If there is enough interest we have a perfect unused item from which to make a fresh master mould. If I was building one from scratch my personal choice would be to use 1500 pre-crossflow Ford bored out to 1650. Twin 1 1/4" SU's for low-down torque and a Newman trials cam. 105E gearbox. Minor 1000 back axle (Marina van is the other 'family' choice). You can still find Pop front axles and springs. VW steering box. 18" wheels with narrower Blockleys on the front and Michelin DS on the rear. All very retro but would still cost less than a Troll .........
ReplyDeletemy Cannon arrived with a 1098cc BMC motor and box........apparently may have been used for autocross, of all things!! However, all mounts for 10hp Ford sidevalve and gloobox in place......which is the motor it currently has, as I had probs with the BMC gearbox knocking out 1st gear too often. the issues I have yet to satisfactorily solve concern the conversion from torque tube rear of gearbox, to hardy spicer propshaft. two or three points I would like to add. Firstly.....[unless DVLA have changed their policy].....because Cannons used a mix 'n match policy of different makes of engine, suspension, etc...a ''new'' Cannon built up as the maker intended would be issued with a Q-plate, as the DVLA would view it as a ''vehicle of indeterminate origin'. SVA approval test would also be needed. Secondly, a Cannon built up using more powerful motivation than a sidevalver, would be better equipped with radius arm rear suspension....the original Cannon rear suspension, whilst being coil sprung, had the axle LOCATION utilising a Ford Pop front A frame reversed and welded to the axle casing.....with the chassis joint being a single one underneath the gearbox, mine being a standard Ford Pop front axle cup and rubber ball..........Cannons were never really meant for prolongued ROAD usage originally, although many were road-registered under the nefarious rules that existed in the 50's and 60's........[inclding separate front and rear brake operation...the footbrake worked the front brakes only, originally]..... Using a Ford Pop front ball-bearing for the rear A- frame can be problematic, especially if the rubber ball gets oil contamination.....I never got around to investigating more modern, longer-lasting, single point joints..........being advised by Dean Partington..[in my view, the most competent exponent of modified Cannons] to juk the idea and build radius arms....... HOWEVER....I admit to trying to retain the flavour of the original..which is why I REPAIRED the war damage on my chassis...rather than doing a new chassis......seemed a bit pointless really, as by going the latter route I might just as well have built a special from scratch! bear in mind, with the above comments, I was the sad begger who then used his Cannon as a daily driver, commuting to and from work, in all weathers...mostly snow, as it happened. { I got chased once, by, as it turned out, Steve Laurence, who owned a DP CAnnon until recently......he and his lady wife wanted to know how I managed to get over 60 mph out of the Cannon...which they recognised as such in passing.....when their old Dellow would struggle to get to 60, on a 10HP Sidevalve motor?? It was a 'revs' issue] Thirdly....regarding rear axles.........I utilise a Suzuki Supercarry van rear axle. This is modern technology, quite strong as-is......bit CAN be modified to accept stronger diffs.......or even, find an older Suzuki Jeep rear axle.....the early non-offset ones if possible.....and fit an american-made off-road diff?? the reason? Apart from modern metallurgies,bearings, etc...the Suzuk axles..[including the new van that has the snub nose bonnet].....are less than 4 feet in track.....identical to the old Austin ...and Ford Pop.....rear axle widths. <di
ReplyDeleteSPHERICAL joint is the term I was looking for..underneath the gearbox..... I found.....the ''original'' rear coil springs [ie what it arrived with] were far too soft for either my own weight, or the weight of the additional items needed to make the Cannon, not just road legal, but road 'useable'....you know...two rear lights, that reversing light, fire extinguisher, tools, trolley jack....battery clamp.....5 gallons of fuel...a fat passenger.... the A-frame that locates the rear axle, would persist in striking the rear corner of the chassis, just where it joins the kicked-up section.....only a matter of inches, I know, but I couldn't find an easy way around giving the frame more room...it needed to be fixed to the old leaf spring locations..... from what I had on my junk pile, I ended up with a pair of springs off yet another skoda....the longer one's off a RApid...I have no idea of spring rates, etc... I suppose I should have plonked a rear wheel on some bathroom scales...sorry about the change of print, I've pressed a key and I don't know which.......but this idea of corner weights is a bit of a problem if one works alone as I do.....I didn't have any 17 stone sandbags to represent driver and passenger....and couldn't read the scales until I got out of the car.....which was pointless.......so I couldn't really work out what spring rate was needed, ie length, number of coils, wire diameter, etc....so I used trial and error.......
ReplyDeleteBrilliant - that's the sort of car tweeking I like to hear about. Make it work, make it work reliably, and do it at home in a cost-effective way, with bits you stand half a chance of finding again at a half-decent price when something breaks. Absolutely no intention of Cannon-ing myself, as they look the most uncomfortable thing to do any distance on (I hestitate to use the usual car term of "in" ) in anything other than Southern California-type climate, but I enjoyed reading that. Bri
ReplyDeletewhy, thank you....just what is needed in one's darkest hour......... sadly I quail under the glare of those in our midst that have boundless engineering skills and talents.....and doubtless I fall into the category of ''those of us who can so easily bring our sport into public disrepute'' with our ,often misguided, mechanical efforts.... I know Cannon's chassis is flexible...but should I be able to alter the headlamps' beam every time I depressed the clutch pedal?
ReplyDeleteoh...and do beware, folks [when wielding one's ancient arc welder, repairing brackets and tree bars]......Mike Cannon built his chassis using bronze welding....such fine workmanship.....will Steve Holder use the same techniques? Is he allowed to? Regarding open-car issues....On those occasions when I ventured forth in the Cannon on a trial....I only really regretted not having a roof, when stuck in a long queue, tired, in the pouring rain, with zero respite....it was on those occasions my mind would wander around the realms of....could I arrange a piece of vynyl between the rollbar [careful with trades descriptions on that one.....I have never actually tipped the car over...intentionally, that is......to 'test' to see if the darned thing didn't actually collapse...or indeed, if anything would actually fall off...] and the screen top....or what about a targa top?.........I learnt the hard way, that golfing brolleys strapped to the back of the car, really MUST be located, pointy side upwards....otherwise they filled with rainwater..... question, for auldfahrt triallers....the above Cannon [it IS registered under that name]...has old-fashioned rubber rear mudguards....probably a lorry item cut in half. One side has a few splits/cuts in it, which for the most part have been soundly repaired using what appears to be canvas, glued on underneath....done by a predecessor [Jim Templeton?...It was his car before he gave it to me].....what I'd like to know is......what sort of glue would have been used? whatever it was, it's tough as old boots...I've tried Evostik, it didn't hold.......
ReplyDeleteI suppose that means that even more Locosts etc will appear on Dutton log books!
ReplyDeletevery frighteningly put, Myke..... I did the same avoidance technique when I made my Cannon road-legal....rushing ahead with basically what I'd already got, mechanically....to beat the onset of SVA.... I suggest, anyone wishing to put together a Cannon, either chose a more modern donor which can provide enough major components to accrue sufficient points as per DVLA, so that it simply becomes a 're-chassis' job.......in which case, a Cannon chassis may not be the best starting point.........or......use a Ford Pop, including rear axle....with which one must suffer until sufficient time has elapsed after re-registration..........to sneak in another more appropriate piece of kit? A year or so ago, an engineer bravely designed and made a tubular chassis to utilise the its from Ford pops......producing a modernday, ''50's special'' replica. At the moment I cannot find its name.....I saw it via the Sidevalve owners club mag....but it appeared to be able to simply chnage the 'bodystyle' as far as a Pop's V5c was concerned....points, again?? Dean Partington's DP Cannons have independant front suspensions........also, his radiators are quite large....but sloping, to fit within the Cannon's ridiculously thin profile.....with suitable shrouding a point to note....the Cannon front loop, ie the loop to which the nosecone is affixed....will nicely contain a mini radiator..on it's side.
ReplyDeletePosted on behalf of Richard Milne. What the follows is the text of Richards message. He also send some very nice pictures which can be found if you Click Here I am extremely interested in the Cannon article on Classical Gas for a number of reasons:
ReplyDelete"original jig on which all genuine Cannon chassis were built"
I was offered the jig some years ago at the time I purchased two Cannons - albeit in poor condition but road registered with V5C from the former owner.
My point is that the jig appears to have been made to facilitate a production run of the more common chassis using the steel nose [made from 100E headlight steel fittings] and the GRP [deep nose cone]. See attached cutaway
There were Cannons made before this production run that were quite different using Ford torque tube rear axles and the Y-Model front with bowden actuated mechanical brakes.
An example of this type of Cannon exists in Cumbria in an advanced state of restoration. Indeed I remember the day the car in question arrived in Cumbria in 1960 owned by Ian Walker formerly of the Maidstone Club. Documented history of this car shows it competed in many events in the mid fifties and early sixties. The frame as you may realise is similar but not made on the jig in question.
A further example albeit an extreme one relating to the statement
"original jig on which all genuine Cannon chassis were built" is available for all to see on the www.clasicallcarsforsale.co.uk at this time - is the Cannon Sports Racing Car one of only two believed built [it so happens I was talking to a former owner just last week-end] who recognised the car from pictures supplied by the current vendor. See attachments.
Ian Walker sold the early Cannon in 1961/2 to a friend in Cumbria when he took delivery of one of the cars that the jig refers - the car was yellow and I took pictures of it at a trial in 1962.
I think the main point is to clarify what Cannons actually came off the jig? otherwise others with early and later Cannons may be ex-communicated from documentation.
Some later Cannons were different in many ways - as an example I have a one built with square tubes in the frame - we recently found pictures of the very car on an event in the sixties.
There are a number of people who are interested in classic sporting trials cars and their preservation. One such car recently beautifully restored was Lol Hurt's original championship winner. The car was restored by Stuart Butterfield former BTRDA Gold Star Winner [who sadly passed away two weeks ago] The car actually won a club trial outright against modern machines just two years ago. Interested in a get together?
Another is David Baldock who owns XXB 680 - probably the ultimate Cannon to own originally campaigned by Rex and Rene Chappell and a National Championship winner in the sixties and as pictured in Motor Sport in colour.
I have an example in an advance state of re-construction for the road - the process is not for the faint hearted. The car has been largely re-engineered in its original format and period equipment to pass the MOT fairly and squarely with I may add, an MOT tester who as a motor sport restorer has given valuable advice.
I think the main message is I am impressed that a frame has already been made and another repaired - I am interested in learning more - but let us be careful about what the jig represents.
Regards
Richard Milne
All very interesting, particularly Alistair's saga. With cars such as the Cannon it pays not to be too dogmatic. There were a lot of variations. I was certainly aware that some Cannons were built using Pop rear axle, torque tube and mechanical brakes - as I owned and drove one, LLH 80D. Horrible thing, nothing like as nice to drive as a more normal spec. and 'clumpy' in comparison. As to Cannons having some square tubes, see the Cannon piece I wrote for Andrew Brown's website . My old ex-Mike Cannon car, WKE 555 had a round tube gearbox crossmember, two later cars had box-section ones. " ... original jig on which all genuine Cannon chassis were built" I was (as this is a Trials site) referring to Trials Cannons. The one or two Cannon Sports Cars are clearly nothing to do with this jig ... I've heard the 100E headlight cowl story many times .... but there are Cannons with original steel cowls NOT made from 100E bits. We will be putting a very late chassis (made for pre-crossflow Ford mechanicals) on the jig to see what was changed on these later cars. Steve is certainly using MIG welding rather than bronze welding - but not all Cannons were bronze welded. One reason Cannons were so good is the use of the long A-frame pivoting near the tail of the gearbox. The use of shorter trailing links cannot produce the same 'jacking' effect. Like Richard I would like to see these older genuine NTF cars get more use in the right company. If there were enough restored and running then just maybe the BTRDA could run an 'invited' class at a modern trial? As the Stroud members will know, Eric Wall owns and uses the ex-Peter Highwood Canhi. The SVA/IVA area is one that I am still checking on. What I can tell you is that numerous VSCC specials have been created (it is a veritable cottage industry within that club) from various donor vehicles and I've not heard of one of them having to go through SVA. Unipower made just about 100 vehicles in total (the GT variant not the agricultural one ....) and were accepted by the MSA as limited production so the 100 mark seems quite important but it will potentially be difficult to work out how many Cannon chassis were made.
ReplyDeleteAny update on the Fourtune Engineering new Cannon chassis? (website not working) With a Suzuki Carry axle and Suzuki Swift engine could be interesting. Not sure how to get one through an IVA as sharp edges, seat belts anchorage and drums on front could be a problem as well as steering column. Liege forum is chatting about Suzuki engines and already using Suzuki Carry axles.
ReplyDeleteBest wishes
Mike Wood