I have "acquired" some 16" diameter wheels, ex-early Suzuki jeep, steel!
With a slight change of brake drums, they will fit the Suzuki axle I have in my Cannon.
What I need is some ideas for decent tyres to fit...they have a 4" width in the wheelwell.
Currently all I have found are taxi tyres, whose tread is high mileage type, with no sypes on the edges.
Any suggestions, including who might stock?
Radials may be favourite, but I am not adverse to using cross plies!
Optimum sizes would be useful, too......no wider than 185 or equivalent!
Also, does anyone know where I can get hold of (at least) 3 Morris eight wheels, post war preferably, 16" diameter?
We Liege types have 16" wheels, unfortunately tyre choice is quite limited for this diameter. Lieges come with "Avon Speedmaster MkII" 5 x 16 crossplies, which are actually a motorcycle tyre. I understand they were originally fitted to Sunbeam S7 (or was it S8?) bikes. They are adequate for the road but not too good for trialling. Traction is quite poor on wet grass, probably due to their round profile. If you can get them to "dig in" they offer a bit more grip. The sidewalls are very stiff, if you let them down below 10 psi, the sidewalls don't give but the tread footprint deforms upwards in the middle so there is no improvement in grip. I attended a trial where the minimum tyre pressure on the sections was 19 psi - we pointed out that the car designer recommends just 18 psi on the road, so effectively we were being handicapped on arrival, having just driven 130 miles at a lower pressure to take part. The organiser then allowed everyone to use 18 psi. I understand that Dunlop do a 16 x 5.25 (or 5.50) but they have a continuous fine tread (no sipes) so they are very much a road tyre. There are a few more 16 inch bike tyres but they are only 3.25" wide and probably not strong enough for a car's road use. There is also the military Landrover type (continuous centre band and "T" arms off to each side but I don't think they will be allowed (and I don't think they would go under the Liege mudguards, so I haven't pursued this line of inquiry). If you find a suitable radial, we'd be glad to hear about it! Good luck, Paul Wheatley
ReplyDeleteI KNEW there was a reason why I stuck with 15" wheels! the landrover tyre is definately an off road tyre...... Adrian Dommett ran some michelin(?) crossplies on his special some years back....but I can't remember what diameter wheels he ran! Perhaps it will be worthwhile trawling the jumbles for some older crossplies that arent too perished? Anyways, i'ts nice to see Liege following my idea (?) in using the Suzuki Supercarry axle......"apparently" the Suzuki SJ410 diff will fit the axle....doesn't it have 4 star wheels? just a thought.........?
ReplyDeleteHi Alastair, Yep, the SJ410 does have 4 star wheels, but the ratio is 4.22 so not so clever for your, ( or our ) 16 " wheels, so you have to change the CWP over. Does that sound familiar ???? Just like we used to in the Skoda's !!! Nice to hear you're still out and about, are you doing The Edinburgh ?? The tyre issue is proving a difficult one to resolve for us Liegeists as Paul described. I have made a point of visiting all the specialist vintage tyre suppliers I can find because of the narrow width required,(our rims are only 3.5 "). So far no joy in finding anything more suitable. Help gratefully recieved if anyone out there knows of a potential source of a reasonable pattern ? Hope to see you in Derbyshire. All the best, Simon Robson
ReplyDeleteThere are six virtually new 185 X 16 Michelin X radials for auction on eBay for a buy it now price of £450. Sounds a lot of money, but they are normally circa £150 each. Item no is 7921659581, search under "tyres"
ReplyDeleteHi, Simon. How are you? yep, as far as I know, I have an entry for the edinburgh....I'm slowly working up a scurrilous Rapid 136......just a wee hike, some sensible mods, not too radical...problems centre around the gearbox x-member, which acts like a bulldozer blade under the car....much more so than my old estelle, which ran swing-axle rear end! Unfortunately, it doesnt seem as if I can replace it with some top gearbox mounts as I had with the old estelle, and still stay within the rules for suspension pickup points! gosh, hasnt the price of modified/competition car insurance gone up? lets hope I still have a passenger 2 days before the event.....passengers baling out at the last minute seems to be a plague of mine... will keep an eye out for you....still running the Liege, or are you onto something else? up and coming seems to be pre war cars..???
ReplyDeleteAlistair
ReplyDeleteI have just modified my swing axle 105 to semi
independent rear end courtesy of rear suspension from Simon R. I have taken a
skid plate from the rear of my undertray, which ends just before the fuel tank,
and bolted it to the gearbox cross member similar to the way I did it with swing
axle. Interesting comment you made about top gearbox mounts as I had planned
that until I saw how semi rear ends worked. If you give me a call on 01228
530555 I can give you some more detailed info. By the way, you ARE on the
Edinburgh!! Not many Skodas competing though.
Myke Pocock and Baldrick the Estelle.-----
Original Message -----
From:
Alastairqueen1
To: Classical Gas,
For Trials enthusiasts
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 8:24
PM
Subject: Re: Tyres for 16" rims
New Message on Classical
Gas, For Trials enthusiasts
Tyres for
16" rims
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Reply to Sender <a target="_top" href="http://groups.msn.com/ClassicalGasForTrialsenthusiast
Hi, y'all am trying a very long but narrow skid plate....keeps weight down....running from rear floor area ack over x member to rear... Rapids are not as suitable for trialling as estelles......can't use 14" wheels for starters, as they were'nt equipped with them all those years ago, unlike estelles.....to play that game, one needs a 110R coupe!
ReplyDeleteHello Alastair, this is the Liege die cast aluminium wheel. As mentioned, they are 3.5 wide and use the 5.00 x 16 Avon Speedmaster tyre with inner tubes on the Liege. They have a 4inch PCD and the Suzuki Carry axle hubs are modified to suit. Peter Davis
ReplyDeleteAs an interested bystander can anyone explain why the Liege was designed with such a tyre limiting wheel? It seems that the Liege was aimed at competition and Trials but how did they get it so wrong on the wheel thing? Stuart Harrold
ReplyDeleteHi Stuart What makes you think "they" (Peter?) got it wrong? The engine doesn't stall from too much grip does it! Couldn't resist sorry.. Mark
ReplyDeleteQuite a few cross plies at www.longstonetyres.co.uk ( I am always on the lookout for 3.50/19 trials for my front wheel)
ReplyDeletehad a look at Longstone tyres...the Dunlop Trient taxi tyre seems a likely target....unlike other "taxi" tyres, which generally have a "parallel" tread pattern, this one has additional (but thin) sypes on the edges, but more importantly, seems to have fewer but deeper main "slots" in the centre.....which can only aid the self-cleaning ability of the tyre?? as for the others? crikey, aren't they expensive? Liege on 16 inch wheels? good idea IMHO......adds ground clearance (many vehicles lose grip because they become sledges and bulldozers.....) also the LENGHT of the tyre's footprint is vastly increased. narrow wheels/tyres cut through mud more easily than wider ones, which add flotation to the game....ok for a 4x4...embarrasing for us! for this reason, when I was "seriously" trialling my old scud, I gradually reduced the tyre size down from 185 to 165 and 155 sections...... as for power.....trialling seems to go to one of two extremes....oodles of power and relatively little......in other words...either "bull-in-a-chinashop style" or "tickle-it-up" style? I prefer the latter, finding that limiting engine size and power helps with weak(er) transmissions, as long as weight is kept down...(perhaps that could be a subsection in class 8?....)....cars above or below a certain engine size?....or a sub-class for those cars using, for example, sidevalve ford engines? Am I biased, or what?
ReplyDeleteOn Skoda Wheel Diameters & the Like You say that a Rapid cannot use 14" rims, unlike an Estelle, 'cos it didn't come on them originally. But surely a Rapid (Coupe) is the same MODEL RANGE as an Estelle (Saloon) and therefore you can "Improve within the model range" or in other words mix and match across the vehicles to get the bits you want. Without knowing exactly what you plan with your suspension mounting points I cannot be sure, but a certain amount of lateral thinking suggests that using Estelle mounting points on a Rapid is still within the model range.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to the rear suspension on Estelles and
ReplyDeleteRapides there are two types of suspension available, swing axle and
semi-independent. With swing axle the gearbox cross member can be deleted as its
only function is to hold the front of the gearbox. The gearbox is then hung on
rubber dougnuts from the bodyshell. This is, I understand, a well known rallying
mod that Skoda themselves used.
With semi-independent rear suspension, not only is
the gearbox mounted on the crossmember but the inboard ends of the sem-trailing
arms pivot from it also. To do away with the crossmember would mean hanging the
gearbox as above and creating some sort of mountings for the semi-trailing arms
fitted directly to the bodyshell. I presume that this would not be allowed and
anyway, these would still need some form of underbody protection.
Myke
Pocock.
Hi Alastair, (and others), Re tyres etc, I absolutely agree with Alastair re width and footprint, also weight. Stuart, you'd have to ask Peter Davis the why 16" question, they look "right" for the period appearance, but a manufacturers alternative diameter ("a la Marlin, Duttons & Tempest") would be a help for getting a tyre that at least gave us something of the chance the others have! Mark, no it doesn't stall from too much grip, but it would be nice to have that problem instead of sitting, wheels spinning hopelessly, while everyone else is driving up the section. Does anyone have anything to do with Smart cars ? Reason I ask is I have found that they have a 16" option in their "personalise your Smart" section, and their front wheels are narrow aren't they ? Thing is which manufacturer supplies the tyres? I believe they use Continental's in their other fittings. Can anyone confirm details, pattern etc? I'm sure they will be a low profile jobbie, but if the pattern is half reasonable they must be better than the Avon M/C trye we are currently restricted to. Thanks to John re the E-Bay auction 185 x 16 tyres, unfortunately they're not really going to fit on a 3.5" rim John, and I had several searches with Longstone at the International Historic Motorsport show in February. Unfortunately they have absolutely nothing to fit our wheels. Re 14" on the Skoda Rapid, I agree with SimonW, it is the same base vehicle with a hatchback rather than a saloon body (same as Sierra Hatch / Sierra Saloon). Regards the crossmember, Alaister, you will remember mine was a 130GL, so I always had the "snow plough" underneath. I believe it is possible however to significantly improve the situation whilst staying entirely within the rules. Lets chat on the Edinburgh next week. By the way, if you want to run 13" I have a set of 4 unused lovely, lovely MX pattern remoulds still available !! Tubes are available too !! I also have a Factory Rally Car Cylinder Head of the 136 variety, and a set of Cylinder Liners, Pistons & Rings for sale. All the best, Simon
ReplyDeletegolly gosh...this thread is rattlin' along nicely. Well done everyone.. rapids on 14"ers? well,I suppose that like models would be stretching the point a bit....especially if the MCC commitee decided to cut up rough! My point was thus...correct me if I'm wrong, but the Estelles finished with 14" wheels some years before the Rapid came into being.....but it was a follow-on from the S110R coupe.......I bought the last of the brand new 14" wheels from the original skoda imprters, who were clearing up their warehouse....so any more are 2nd hand! concerning removing the X-member...I've been chatting to john Shelley, of Skofast.com.....he makes the point that removing of the X-member actually created serious problems....mainly to do with the gearbox moving in rally cars....the swing axle rear end suffering from driveshaft forces due to the fixed outer end...suggests not to bother, although I used the top mounts WITH the X-member for extra security...the objective being to limit gearbox movement......in rally cars their were reporrts of engines actually moving 2-3" rearwards under acceleration. Neil Bray found that there were insignificant advantages from 14" wheels on his skoda estelle....and since the 14" steels were a tad soft (I found that too) he stuck with 13" alloys. For those newcomers to this sport, the skoda Estelle is perhaps a better bet, if only for the following reasons......it is easier to mount 2 spare wheels on the engine lid than on the rapid's sloping item......the back doors make it easier for elderly passengers to clamber in and out...also easier to get the jack out from behind the seats......all the mechanical components are swappable with other models....just watch what kind of rear suspension you have......my experience is that the swing axle type is stronger, and more able to withstand extreme angles, but the guide blocks on the inboard joint MUST be changed before EVERY trial...they are the weak link. plus, most basic panels available new are for the estelle...they must be adapted for a rapid (sills, etc) AND CUT OFF THAT AIR DAM.....it improves the ramp angles no end!
ReplyDeleteHello could we talk about ships on here as I
ReplyDeletehave heard nothing else but 16" wheels for the passed week. Allistair I
have a set of 14" wheels which need cleaning up. ALAN
More 16" I'm afraid Alan... Simon - I took a slightly different route home last night past the Smart dealership and probably appear suspiciously looking at severval front wheels on CCTV! Anyway the norm is 15" but there was even a 17" with a "rubber band" on it. However there were two 16". Bridgestone B340 205/45R16 & a Michelin XSE 195/45R16. The Michelin looked better than Bridgestone pattern wise. Hope it helps! If Peter could put an option of 15" rims on the build sheet for new/future car sales couldn't that be used or a taller pre WW2 size that the VSCC use? Mark
ReplyDeleteSimon, Check out http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17483&cat=&page=1 Michael
ReplyDeleteSurely, if you put 17" wheels on a Smart they would touch in the middle
ReplyDeleteThanks for the feedback guys. Mark, I don't think even the smaller 195 will fit a 3.5" rim. Michael, there are some "vintage" patterns on that site which could work, will keep trying. Simon
ReplyDeleteSimon............IF the SMART 17" 'ers were close together in the middle...........would the car qualify as a three wheeler for MCC trials? I'm thinking (dangerous, I know)....in the bad ol' days, a three wheeler could legally (for the road) have 4 wheels, if two of them were a certain min/max distance apart? a certain bubble car was built with 4 wheels, the two rear one's were side by side, close together! was there a rule (for trials) which allowed two drive wheels stuck together......like a truck? whilst I know of the rules which states that for a production car, only wheel diameters that were used in production could be fitted, surely that doesn't apply to tyre sizes? Does it? thinking again, with the current proliferation of large diameter wheels (and very low profile tyres) on production cars, does this not leave the way open for users of modern production cars to have large diameter (but narrow width) wheels? Like the handy 15" rims we all dream of fitting? On enquiry, some time back, SMART's are being frowned upon for trials...because of the risk they'll fall over backwards?????? rwd mk3 escorts? in class 3?.......4wd cossie lookalikes with front drive shafts removed?...like that panda? Landrover in class 1????
ReplyDeletesimon R.......notice that flat rad seies one morgan 4/4? 17" wheels......same rims width as a Ford pop.......very handy looking cross ply Michelin "Suerconforts"...I think it said.....very interesting sort of block tread...bit like the old Michelin X pattern, but with deeper, wider grooves!....Looked expensive, though! perhaps they do a 16"? or could the liege go to 17" with the drivers getting vertigo?
ReplyDeleteYes Alaster, I've seen them. I don't believe there is a 16" version, as for the 17", the Liege could take them but this would put it into Class 8, (as would 15" because there is no manufacturers option at this time). The Avons are next to useless when the going gets really slippery/muddy but to-date I have found no other option. Anyone know what the VSCC boys have available ? SimonR
ReplyDelete