The Trailer Debate - Afresh
Discussion list Previous discussion Next discussion
Started by: Mark Rosten-Edwards Sent: 12/02/2001 12:58 5 Replies
Hi all
Below is the text lifted out of "My Exmoor". I hope the people involved do not mind.
I personally have driven the Escort to and from the meetings. My thoughts surround
the wheels which take a fair bashing in our sport. Bent rims and cut tyres are all
always managed to return home on tyres I carry in the boot which have usually done just
the road sections. But what happens when you haven't got any/enough left? Thinking of
it how many of us check the inside tyre walls before returning home? A trailer would
seem a better option for safety alone.
Having said that there is a definite pleasure in driving the Escort still covered in
mud back to London and looking at all the faces in the 4x4s, which will see about as
much mud as Mika Hakkinen's McLaren will! And certainly never see the delights of
Crackington, Tillerton, Blue Hills, Simms and the like.
Anyway read on as there are people below who know, and have experienced, an awful
lot more than I have.
Mark
From Chris Phillips
This is not strictly a contribution to the 'My Exmoor' discussion; more a response to
Michael's views on trailering cars to and from trials as expressed in his report on the
Exmoor over on Classical Gas.
Dudley's views on this are well known and respected and carry a lot of weight in a sport
that he has competed in with distinction for many, many years.
Michaels views on Class 8 cars are also valid - but not if you're 6'4" tall!
Both Stuart Harrold and I are around this height. If it weren't for the ability to
trailer to and from one day events, or back from the MCC events I doubt if either of
us would compete.
Stuart's Troll has just about enough leg room for us to operate in for relatively
short periods of time.
But cramp etc sets in after a short time. The Land's End instruction after Hoskin
'.... turn left on to the A 30 and in approximately 23 miles turn right at ...'
is purgatory.
For the sake of my and my chauffeur's arthritic knees and ankles leave us have the
luxury of returning from trials in some comfort, not cramped up in the car like
sardines in a can.
On the Manx I tried the passengers position in a Cannon, just prior to the last hill.
How anybody over 5'4" can operate in those I do not know.
From: Michael Leete
Sent: 03/02/2001 21:55
3 of 4
I think Ed's experiences compared to mine highlight how hard it is or organisers to
cater for the wide range of capabilities of cars and drivers. I know I would really
have struggled in my Beetle on some of the stuff Dudley climbed with ease. I was
interested to hear how long Ed had to wait at the holding control for the first section.
I should think the last car must have finished pretty late.
A couple of words on Chris's message - hope to find out for myself before I get to old
as I rather fancy a Troll or a Dellow. Only problem is that guy's like David Thompson
get in while I am still thinking!
Certainly I was pretty comfortable in Dudley's car. It was about 135 miles from The
New Forest to Barnstaple in conditions hovering around freezing. I was surprised
but I didn't get cold in the gear I borrowed from Dudley and Fred Gregory. As I
said I was pretty comfortable and went to sleep for most of the journey back!
Michael
From: Mike Furse
Sent: 09/02/2001 20:52
4 of 4
Surely the topic of trailering cars to meetings is worthy of a separate subject,
rather than added to a report on one specific event.
Although now known as Classic Trials, we are all involved in RELIABILITY Trials. To
me this means, among other things, that the cars should be comfortable enough to
drive for more than the small mileage that the average one-day event uses.
There are arguments for using trailers to get to and from events. Convenience and
safety being two that spring to mind. The idea of using a trailer because the vehicle
is next-to-impossible to drive on the road strikes me as a very poor argument indeed.
I drive the car I do because I am comfortable driving it. I don't fit in a Dellow
and I have problems with Trolls, so I don't drive them. I sold my very competitive
Class 8 special because it was too uncomfortable to drive for any distance. The
next owner did the same!
Dud regularly makes fools of most of his fellow competitors in Class 8 and even
greater fools of those of us (yes, I use a trailer!) in the other classes.
His car is driven to and from all meetings and his stamina is such that, although
his passenger may fall asleep on the way home, Dud does not! More power to him.
This argument is important because it is linked to what Mike has to say about the
difficulties of trying to run an event for cars of such widely differing abilities.
The supply of suitable vehicles for classes 3,4,5 and 6 is fast running out (the
newest Escort Mk2 is now over 20 years old!). Competitive vehicles in Class 1 tend
to be odd to say the least. Class 2 competitors are increasingly concerned about
the severity of sections and do not contest the one-day trials in great numbers.
Against that, some kitcars are now modified almost beyond recognition and a lot
of the things in Class 8 were not designed to be used on the road at all and,
increasingly, organisers are laying out courses to stop them. The fact is that
most of the successful cars tend to arrive on a trailer. Is this because they
have been developed to the point that they cannot be driven comfortably (or,
indeed, safely) for any distance on the road?
At the moment, organisers do a pretty good job at squaring this particular circle,
but if things develop too much further some competitors will be demanding that we
take the events off the public highway altogether as their vehicles are too
uncomfortable to drive on the roads!
The time is fast approaching when we will have to decide which way our sport is going.
Mike Furse.
Add reply First Previous 1-5 of 5 Next Last
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Leete Sent: 13/02/2001 23:34 1 of 5
Posted on behalf of Duncan Stephens as he has had technical troubles:-
Michael, I have tried to write a note on the Cotswold Clouds and also on the trailer
debate, but each time it has not displayed the message that I wrote....does the
community have the 90day rule like hotmail?? Could this be the reason.....heard
of anyone else having problems. Anyway, I have attached a file on the piece that
I wanted attached to the trailer debate. I kind of waffled on a bit, but am just
trying to provoke a few ideas and some discussion!! See you Sunday at the PCT??
I shall be their with the Nova ballasted, but just found out that I have got
Simon Harris in the class too, so may put some more ballast in as I know the
Nova will not pull second and also it is going to be wet isn't it? Are you doing
the event? Duncan I was suppose to be doing a sporting trial the weekend of the
Cotswold Clouds, but it was cancelled due to us not being able to get into the
field. Instead of watching it rain all day, Dad and I decided to go and watch
the Cotswold Clouds. I must say that I generally agree with what has been said
about the use of trailers in getting trials specials to and from events. We do
have to ask ourselves if this is the image that the sport wishes to portray to
the general public that our cars are not ideal for travelling on the public highway?
Think of the safety implications if one of these cramped "specials" was unfortunately
involved in an accident. I personally feel that the issue of safety is becoming
about their products (the NCAP results). Whilst watching Crooked Mustard and
Merves Swerve on the Cotswold Clouds we did notice that some of the specials
due to the climbing ability of the competitive special, tyre pressure restrictions
circle. One special appeared to be down right dangerous in our few. On Crooked
Mustard the front was in the air between the second and third corner, then right
up the bank after the third corner. Then this same special had them back in the
just think what it is like going over speed bumps! Ballast is banned in
trials, it is just not quite as severe but these "cars" have to be driven on the road.
This is not against specials generally, after all we all have a great deal of
admiration for Dudley and his J2, but can some of the class 8 vehicles actually
be called cars? Would many of them be strictly legal if we came across a policeman
protrude beyond a certain point behind the back bumper??!! Saloon cars are getting
harder and harder to find in a good condition, and as the hills become tougher
and rougher to stop the specials, it is to the detriment of the saloons as it
is only doing more damage to them. This is only really suppose to be thought
provoking and not against class 8 specials, as I am sure that they have their
place in classic trials. What would organisers do without then?! I appreciate
just how very hard it is for organisers to stop the specials whilst not making
it too hard for everyone else. Duncan
From: stuartharrold Sent: 14/02/2001 10:59 2 of 5
This is an interesting subject and I know my regular bouncer has had his say on
trailers. So now my thoughts as I trailer my Troll to all trials that do not
start at Popham airfield, so why. All the other classics start at least 120 miles
from home and that means a 120 mile trek home in the dark after the event,
usually on a Sunday evening. I enjoy driving my Troll around country lanes,
B roads and the odd rural A road. I do not enjoy driving on Trunk roads and
Motorways, nothing to do with the safety of the Troll but all to do with
vulnerability, I just do not enjoy being 'beaten up' by Arctic trucks as
they flash by at 70 m.p.h. especially on a dark wet night. Remember even
the MCC has removed the dreaded run down the A303 from the route of the Lands End
and Exeter trials. Now another reason, cost. I am lucky in that my employer
provides me with a very comfortable 3 litre saloon and all the fuel that it
uses. So other than income tax it costs me nothing to get to and from events,
a big plus when doing the Northern, Edinburgh, Lands End etc. I can also easily
tow at 60 mph which is a bit faster than the Trolls cruising speed of 45 to 50 mph.
I am sure some not so fortunate will agree. Another reason, if the worse happens
and the car breaks down I have transport handy and can get everything home in a
reasonable time without having to hang around for the RAC or similar. Lastly it
is very nice to be able to drive home in a warm car in dry clothes listening to
the radio after a hectic days trialing. I enter classic trials to drive and
compete on trials, not to drive a trials car on a motorway or similar.
I plan to continue in my 'soft' non spirit of classic trials ways for as long as
I have a trailer!!!
Stuart Harrold
From: stuartharrold Sent: 14/02/2001 11:07 3 of 5
Sorry all, I spent considerable time typing a reply only to find only a few
disjointed lines had got onto the system. I cannot be bothered to do it all again.
Stuart Harrold
From: Mike Furse Sent: 14/02/2001 18:36 4 of 5
What's happened to the line lengths in this discussion? Or is it me!!? I like
to print out some of these discussions to distribute to friends.
This is now impossible. Mike Furse.
From: Michael Leete Sent: 14/02/2001 23:50 5 of 5
Yes this is strange. I know with Duncan's stuff I had a problem because I cut
and pasted it. However, it all seems to have gone up the chute. I am interested
to see what happens to this post.
Michael
Hi all Very strange the lines lengths but all the text seems to be there. I did paste the start of the dicussion in from Ms Word but i have done that before without a prob. Any thoughts? Anyway the above seems OK. I hope it helps. Another thought occured to me this morning on the way to work. In a jam as usual! The three MCC trials were won by Class 3 Escorts last year. (David Heale + Ian Moss) All won on the sp. test times. I would have thought that the power to weight ratio of the reds and yellows would have been a major advanage in these tests. Or does it prove that Mk2 Escorts handle the best...! especially when driven by good drivers. Brings us back to fact that power isn't everything. Mark
ReplyDeleteGood it seems to work! Mark
ReplyDeleteHello everyone, I feel its about time I added an opinion to a subject, and this one seems as good as any so here goes. From what I gather, Micheal and Dudley don't like trailers, Stuart does with good reason, and Mark and Mike both seem to have arguments each way. This debate does seem to be anti class 8, which I supose do use trailers more than others, although I have to say, I have seen saloon cars on them as well as class 7s. I have only been competing for just over 2 years, so I don't realy expect my veiws to be taken to seriously. All I can say, in the 2 years I had my buggy, I covered 9000 miles competing and travelling to trials. I never had a trailer and thought I had encountered everytype of weather. Now on my first Trial with the Troll, the Cotswolds, we got quite wet on the way, dried off during, and drenched on the way back, all makes for intresting storys and to me, the real feeling that the trial was a proper one. The Troll dos'nt pocess a roof neither did the buggy come to that, Our journey home took us about 5 miles on the M 40. Just after joining the rain turned to hail stones, visability gone, partly due to spray, but much more alarming was the fact the hailstones were hitting my eyes, Anybody who thinks trailers are soft, should try this, its ok in a saloon with a heater, but surley saftey should always come first. People say class 8 is to competetive for other classes, give us more tyre pressures then, I certainly would welcome them, as ripped side walls are one of my biggest expense's. Im not sure this would mean extra ballest, as too much can have the oppisit effect, I think balance is more important. Yes Escorts did win the MCC trails, and Mr Bartleman won the Clee hills last year, climbing hills I couldnt, tyre pressures again, So its not impossible to have competition amongst the class's. Although I would take a guess they had slightly tuned engines horsepower will always help. With regards to class 8 looking odd, does this mean we can only use Dellows now, as they seem to be period type cars, It has also been mentioned they are vunerable, I can safley say the Troll is a very sure footed beast, and I feel alot safer driving it then I ever did driving my old beetle many years ago, id hate to think what a jacked up version would handle like. Also what about class 2, Austin 7s look very out of place on a motorway, if they were trailered to the start would people object, I hope not. Any speacil now been built, will surley have to undergo an SVA test, to be registered correctly, so saftey will have to be taken into account, That is one of the reasons I purchased the Troll, instead of building the VW speacil in my mind, I would hate to have thrown large amounts of money at it for the tester to shake his head, single donar cars dont work either, onless you are using the whole chassis, so you can have a buggy, but can still get caught out with that, I know from experiance. With this in mind there may not be many more speacils being registered, as its only a matter of time that the V5 has to be produced at MOT time for kit cars and the like. So my opinion of trailers, I dont use one because I cant afford a, the trailer b, the tow car, had to sell that to buy the Troll, if I had one I would be like Stuart and enjoy it, but for the time being I will have to be content getting wet, Oh by the way regarding Chris's comments about being 6'3", Im 5'9" and just fit in the Troll, but my left foot does tend to go to sleep as it wont fit between the clutch and brake pedal Vw style, you have my sympathies. If trailers were banned, how can you enforce the rule, not many trials I compete on allow trailers at the start, except PCTs which i
ReplyDeleteLot of good points coming out here but surely if you can't see properly in a hailstorm perhaps you are not driving a vehicle which is safe on the highway! My car has a proper hood, sidescreens, heater and demister. If I find the weather too bad to continue, I stop and put the hood up. Simple isn't it! I fear that people aren't seeing the bigger picture. Duncan is quite right to point out that safety has become a very serious issue. The trials world is under attack from many directions. The last thing we want to do is to give the legislators any more ammunition. I find it quite difficult on occasion to justify what we do. The great general public and their elected representatives will only tolerate us if they think we are behaving in a reasonable fashion. What we think of as reasonable and what they think is reasonable are not always the same! The debate is moving away from trailers and onto deeper issues. There is a big difference between using trailer for convenience and using one because the vehicle is virtually undrivable over a reasonable distance. While we have vehicles of doubtful roadworthiness and possible illegality in our events, it is going to be very difficult to hold our heads up. This is not an anti class 8 argument. There are vehicles in all the classes that are unstable, others that are incorrectly registered. The argument goes that competitors have to do this to get up the hills that organisers are using. Of course the organisers say they have to use these hills to "stop" the competitive cars that are entering. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to bite a bullet or two. Either, competitors will have to refuse to attempt certain hills (or refuse to enter certain events) on the grounds that they are too severe for legal, roadworthy vehicles, or, organisers are going to have to refuse entries from cars they regard as not suitable for road use or bad for PR. (I can think of only one example of the latter happening, and that was a number of years ago now and involved a vehicle which, today, would be regarded as not particularly competitive or out of the ordinary!). Sooner or later, the spiral of competitiveness will have to be broken. Otherwise, our trials will not survive. It really is as simple as that! Mike Furse.
ReplyDeleteHi I personally agree with David and that if I had a trialer I wouldn't drive the Escort to the events. The engines in the two Escorts probably produce a simliar output to the Troll's unit as they are all Ford Kent engines. I have only done less than 10 trials so there is plenty to learn in the comfort of the Escort but envy the style, performance and challenge of the Class 8 machines. I suppose that I can dream on! Mark
ReplyDeleteI just thought I would let everyone know that on Tuesday I completed a 250 mile round trip to a business meeting in my Class 8 Buggy. It took a little longer than usual, but was not unduly uncomfortable or tiring. Non the less, I WILL be using a trailler in the autumn (F&M willing) or even worse (!!) a pickup truck.
ReplyDelete