Saw another interesting car for sale on the Kit Car site http://www.findit.co.uk/cars/kitcar/cars/562405.htm It's the ex-Mike Furse, ex-Simon Robson Tempest which earlier in it's life had nitrous injection for hill climbing. Dave Smith bought it from Simon when he moved on to his Liege. It's a shame that a car like this will go to waste (in a trials sense) but the back axle (from a Reliant Fox) is a bit fragile. Two questions 1. Is an alternative axle legal for the Tempest in class 7. 2. What would youn have to do to get it admitted in class 5 Michael
I would ask Jack Williams about the axle, but as far as class 5 is concerned I notice the ad says less than 30 made - I don't know what the minimum production run is to qualify as a Production sports car but would guess that it's at least 200.
I belive Jack has an A series, but of course he doen't do Classics so it's a question if the Classic regs would allow it or the Bedford Rascal they use in the Liege. I guess the Tempest doesn't qualify in terms of volume but its a nice little car looking for somewhere to play and class 5 is looking for playmates = Michael
Sorry to be boring, but ..... the Tempest 850 is a listed Class 7 car with a full 'Approved Specification' available - see the ACTC website. That specification specifically lists the axle. The correct procedure, therefore, is to approach the ACTC Technical Panel with a proposal for a change to the specification. I have to say that I think this is very unlikely to be approved unless there is strong documentary evidence that a significant number of the kits (including, of course, non-trials cars) used the alternative axle. A change to this principle would open a flood gate of requests from other Class 7 car owners. The other alternative, for MCC events only, is to request a reclassification certificate. This little-used procedure allows car and driver combinations to be reclassified into a more 'appropriate' class and I believe that Class 5 has been one of the largest beneficiaries of this system - David Rolfe's Riley-engined MG is one example, several historic trials specials are others. I can't comment on the likelihood of this being acceptable in the case of a re-axled Tempest but the existence of an ACTC specification must, surely, count against reclassification. If you really want to compete in Class 7, forget about Tempests, Lieges, or even Marlins. Go out and find a suitable Vincent, or 'original' Dellow, and prove that it's the cars, not the drivers, that make these two 'unique' Class 7 combinations so successful! Andrew
This is a very interesting response from Andrew re class 7. As a mere Troll driver can Andrew tell us why a Vincent is so much better than a Marlin. I would love to hear about this. I think I understand why a Dellow may be a good car. Thanks Stuart
I'll keep this 'thread' going under the title 'Class 8' although we seem to have strayed very definitely into Class 7!! Stuart - There are two reasons why a Vincent should be, on paper, preferable to a Marlin in Class 7: (a) 15" wheels instead of 14"; (b) a rear suspension system which allows greater articulation of the axle. I also suspect that the weight distribution may be preferable, particularly when compared with B-Series engined Marlins, but that's just a guess. There's always been a certain amount of back-biting because Roger Bricknell's car is almost a one-off (although John Salter has a similar one) with a Class 7 specification written around it. Why, for example, should Vincents be allowed to substitute cycle wings for flowing wings when Marlins are not? Roger, however, is a very good driver and there's always been the nagging question as to whether it is primarily Roger or the car that makes the combination so successful. It's both, of course, but I do think Roger made a very sensible car choice. I, for one, would love to see more Vincents trialling regularly in Class 7. As an aside, it is interesting to see how the Lieges have 'come on' over the last couple of years. Given the right conditions, and the luck that we all need, they are starting to become a worthy Class 7 car, and everyone loves them because they're so pretty! Andrew
To but in I guess that the man behind the wheel is a big factor! I wouldn't be surprised if RB could climb Simms in a double-decker bus! On the occasions I have watched Roger it all appears so effortless but I guess it is when you are a master of throttle control! However, it would be really interesting to see another Vincent out regullarly. John Salter's is the only one I know and he concentrates on MCC. On the technical side I would believe the wheel size is a big Vincent plus. Michael
Just a quick observation Michael, The Tempest runs it's Reliant axle suspended as Mr. Reliant originally intended, ie on cart springs. These allow sufficient torque and twist absorbtion to save the problems we originally encountered in the Liege, which due to it's A frame and twin trailing arms located the axle beautifully but loaded all the accompanying stresses into the tubes which promptly twisted themselves out of the Diff casing !! If you have any doubts think of what we have seen Dave Smith (and others) do to their Reliant Kittens over the years on trials hills, not much fragility displayed there !! As a bye the way, thanks Andrew for your kind comments on the Liege, it is a very pretty car, has a personality all its own and mine certainly deserves a far better driver, but is allowing me to learn and enjoy myself. SimonR
Simon - The problem with the Tempest is that if the diff did go you would stand a snowballs chance in the proverbial of finding a Reliant Fox to yeild it's precious diff as a replacement. You can't use a Kitten one as the ratio is wrong for the Tempests bigger wheels. Michael
Me again Michael, I understand your concern, and yes you are correct regarding the ratio of the Diff, but you might be surprised at the availability of parts. As a member of the "Kitten Register" ( an organisation / club run for owners & drivers of Reliant based cars ) you get acess to keepers of parts for the club as well as contact with individuals who are selling anything from a whole car ( yes including Foxes ) to just individual bits. Added to this you must understand that it is not easy to get sufficient torque out of the Reliant engine to cause such problems in the first place !!!! All the best, SimonR
No attachment. Less funny http://www.findit.co.uk/cars/kitcar/cars/564223.htm
ReplyDeleteSaw another interesting car for sale on the Kit Car site http://www.findit.co.uk/cars/kitcar/cars/562405.htm It's the ex-Mike Furse, ex-Simon Robson Tempest which earlier in it's life had nitrous injection for hill climbing. Dave Smith bought it from Simon when he moved on to his Liege. It's a shame that a car like this will go to waste (in a trials sense) but the back axle (from a Reliant Fox) is a bit fragile. Two questions 1. Is an alternative axle legal for the Tempest in class 7. 2. What would youn have to do to get it admitted in class 5 Michael
ReplyDeleteMike,
ReplyDeleteI would ask Jack Williams about the axle, but as far as class 5 is concerned I notice the ad says less than 30 made - I don't know what the minimum production run is to qualify as a Production sports car but would guess that it's at least 200.
Regards, Stuart
I belive Jack has an A series, but of course he doen't do Classics so it's a question if the Classic regs would allow it or the Bedford Rascal they use in the Liege. I guess the Tempest doesn't qualify in terms of volume but its a nice little car looking for somewhere to play and class 5 is looking for playmates = Michael
ReplyDeleteSorry to be boring, but ..... the Tempest 850 is a listed Class 7 car with a full 'Approved Specification' available - see the ACTC website. That specification specifically lists the axle. The correct procedure, therefore, is to approach the ACTC Technical Panel with a proposal for a change to the specification. I have to say that I think this is very unlikely to be approved unless there is strong documentary evidence that a significant number of the kits (including, of course, non-trials cars) used the alternative axle. A change to this principle would open a flood gate of requests from other Class 7 car owners. The other alternative, for MCC events only, is to request a reclassification certificate. This little-used procedure allows car and driver combinations to be reclassified into a more 'appropriate' class and I believe that Class 5 has been one of the largest beneficiaries of this system - David Rolfe's Riley-engined MG is one example, several historic trials specials are others. I can't comment on the likelihood of this being acceptable in the case of a re-axled Tempest but the existence of an ACTC specification must, surely, count against reclassification. If you really want to compete in Class 7, forget about Tempests, Lieges, or even Marlins. Go out and find a suitable Vincent, or 'original' Dellow, and prove that it's the cars, not the drivers, that make these two 'unique' Class 7 combinations so successful! Andrew
ReplyDeleteThis is a very interesting response from Andrew re class 7. As a mere Troll driver can Andrew tell us why a Vincent is so much better than a Marlin. I would love to hear about this. I think I understand why a Dellow may be a good car. Thanks Stuart
ReplyDeleteI'll keep this 'thread' going under the title 'Class 8' although we seem to have strayed very definitely into Class 7!! Stuart - There are two reasons why a Vincent should be, on paper, preferable to a Marlin in Class 7: (a) 15" wheels instead of 14"; (b) a rear suspension system which allows greater articulation of the axle. I also suspect that the weight distribution may be preferable, particularly when compared with B-Series engined Marlins, but that's just a guess. There's always been a certain amount of back-biting because Roger Bricknell's car is almost a one-off (although John Salter has a similar one) with a Class 7 specification written around it. Why, for example, should Vincents be allowed to substitute cycle wings for flowing wings when Marlins are not? Roger, however, is a very good driver and there's always been the nagging question as to whether it is primarily Roger or the car that makes the combination so successful. It's both, of course, but I do think Roger made a very sensible car choice. I, for one, would love to see more Vincents trialling regularly in Class 7. As an aside, it is interesting to see how the Lieges have 'come on' over the last couple of years. Given the right conditions, and the luck that we all need, they are starting to become a worthy Class 7 car, and everyone loves them because they're so pretty! Andrew
ReplyDeleteTo but in I guess that the man behind the wheel is a big factor! I wouldn't be surprised if RB could climb Simms in a double-decker bus! On the occasions I have watched Roger it all appears so effortless but I guess it is when you are a master of throttle control! However, it would be really interesting to see another Vincent out regullarly. John Salter's is the only one I know and he concentrates on MCC. On the technical side I would believe the wheel size is a big Vincent plus. Michael
ReplyDeleteJust a quick observation Michael, The Tempest runs it's Reliant axle suspended as Mr. Reliant originally intended, ie on cart springs. These allow sufficient torque and twist absorbtion to save the problems we originally encountered in the Liege, which due to it's A frame and twin trailing arms located the axle beautifully but loaded all the accompanying stresses into the tubes which promptly twisted themselves out of the Diff casing !! If you have any doubts think of what we have seen Dave Smith (and others) do to their Reliant Kittens over the years on trials hills, not much fragility displayed there !! As a bye the way, thanks Andrew for your kind comments on the Liege, it is a very pretty car, has a personality all its own and mine certainly deserves a far better driver, but is allowing me to learn and enjoy myself. SimonR
ReplyDeleteApologies Andrew - I hadn't read your message first.However, it seems we agree about Vincents! - M
ReplyDeleteSimon - The problem with the Tempest is that if the diff did go you would stand a snowballs chance in the proverbial of finding a Reliant Fox to yeild it's precious diff as a replacement. You can't use a Kitten one as the ratio is wrong for the Tempests bigger wheels. Michael
ReplyDeleteMe again Michael, I understand your concern, and yes you are correct regarding the ratio of the Diff, but you might be surprised at the availability of parts. As a member of the "Kitten Register" ( an organisation / club run for owners & drivers of Reliant based cars ) you get acess to keepers of parts for the club as well as contact with individuals who are selling anything from a whole car ( yes including Foxes ) to just individual bits. Added to this you must understand that it is not easy to get sufficient torque out of the Reliant engine to cause such problems in the first place !!!! All the best, SimonR
ReplyDelete