From Adrian Booth alias Ren5 my skoda is poorley (its the one my dauther drives in local trials) I would like to know if its allright to fit a VW 1300cc out of a polo in the same location as the skoda unit and stay in class 4 or should I go and buy a favorit lump
Fitting the Polo lump will put the car into class 7 as the block is not of the same manufacture, also the position of the engine mountings in the chassis cannot be altered in class 4 so best to find another Skoda lump I would suggest. Otherwise fit a lump that will help make the car competitive in class 7, Ford Pinto maybe? Stuart Cairney
ReplyDeleteStuart thank you for your reply however I will not need to alter the engine mountings on the chaissies just the ones on the block ,as I now beleive Skoda is part of the VAG group would a VW engine be of the same manufacture ? as I understand skoda now fit VW units ,I dont want to go into class 7 due to insurance and novice driver problems (its Lucys first season trialing ) and I feel its safer in a smaller cc class ,coments please Adrian Booth.
ReplyDeleteI did wonder about that and to be honest I'm not sure. Initial reaction is that Skoda wasn't part of VAG when the rear engined cars were produced but then the rules don't say that it has to be. It might be against the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. Although your proposed conversion might be allowed it has the potential for opening up a can of worms in some cases - could you fit a Rover group K series in a Spridget or Zetec in an Escort provided you didn't move the mountings in the chassis? Maybe I could fit a Peugeot engine in my Imp as Chrysler/Talbot where taken over by them or maybe a Talbot Samba engine would be more realistic. Maybe this is one rule which needs futher clarifcation? Stuart Cairney
ReplyDeleteHi I thought you were only allowed to change to an engine which was fitted to the model of car by the manufacture. To add something else into the pot – wheel size. I think (please correct me if not) the the works rally Imps ran 13" wheels which were presumably homolagated (Escorts I think up to 15"). Are they legal for us…. Mark
ReplyDeleteHi its Adrian Booth again as far as MG and the K series is conserned I think its allowed I know of a local miget being so modified all be it for sprint / hillclimb . as for the Skoda question I am now the proud owner of a late favorit lump so the VW question has gone away untill the next time although somebody must have a cast iron answer to this querey
ReplyDeleteA small addition to the previous posting. I was aimed much more at the 12" wheels on the Imp as I know they are getting difficult to find. Mark
ReplyDeleteMark Imps and 13 inch wheels I believe you are correct as we have an Imp expert in the Bristol club who shares your view. Not sure the tech panel of the ACTC would though, without some evidence. On engines both the manufactuer and configuratiuon must be the same which includes camshaft position and number. Cheers Pete
ReplyDeleteAlthough the works Imps may well have tried 13" wheels the rules for rallying in the late 60s/ early 70s were far different to those that exist today. Group 6 cars were virtually prototypes so they could have used larger wheels without homologating them. Our class 4 rules state that you must ' use standard diameter wheels' and I doubt that you could convince the authorities that Imps were ever produced with 13" wheels. If you did I'm sure there would be a queue of class 3 Escort men staking a similar claim for the 15" wheels that appeared on the works rally Escorts from time to time. Regards, Stuart Cairney
ReplyDeleteSorry for the late reply here - this topic was bought to my attention the other week (thanks Pete). I have a set of homologation papers here for the "Sunbeam Imp/Singer Chamois Sport" valid from 1st July 1967. It has the usual mumbo jumbo on the front about 5000 units on it and on Amendments 6 and 7 it lists the following part numbers for Group 2 7103558 (13"x4.5" alloy wheel) 7103415 (13"x5" alloy wheel) 7103416 (13"x5.5" alloy wheel) 7103417 (13"x6" alloy wheel) Now I imagine this could be argued back and forth until the cows come home. I ran mine on 13" wheels as at the time I couldn't get any 12" remoulds. My own POV is that no-one should be made to compete on a tyre which is a "dead size" due to possible supply problems, a point I remember raising at an ASWMC AGM a few years back in the context of the proposed sprint and hillclimb regs.
ReplyDeleteThis should perhaps be better titled "Engines and Configurations" or Model Ranges and homologation. We allow a change of engine provided it is of the same manufacturer and configuration as the original. Configuration means the number and alignment of the cylinders plus the position of the camshaft and its method of operation. Eg an Inline 4 OHV can be swapped for an inline 4 OHV, but not an inline 4 OHC nor a V4 OHV. Where a manufacturer is part of a group, the engine must come from a member of that group at the time of the models manufacture and engines from that same (3rd party) manufacture must have been fitted to vehicles in that specific manufacturers range. If you take Morgan as an example, no engines are of Morgan manufacture, but Ford, Triumph, Rover, Fiat and BMW engines could be mixed and matched across Morgan models. The major stumbling block is also the need to keep the engine mountings in the same place. This refers to the steel bits on the chassis, PLUS the rubber mounts AND the bolt holes in the block. Peugeot engine in an Imp, NO. Peugeot were not part of the group when the Imp was "alive". VW engine in an Estelle, NO. The configuration is wrong anyway. VW is OHC, Estelle is OHV (I think). Favorit Engine in an Estelle, YES - but note that a "late model" Favorit is probably 1400cc as so goes into class 6. The rules say that our cars can be modified within the manufacturers range, and this is normally accepted as including parts homologated into Groups 2 and A. So 13" wheels would be acceptable on an Imp provided you can squeeze them into the arches, but 15" wheels would not be acceptable on a Escort as they were only homologated into Group 4.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarification Simon - presumably, as far as the engine mounts are concerned, this would also prevent, for example, someone moving an Escort engine back a few inches by using some kind of extension bracket between the holes in the block and the rubber mount. I hadn't considered that it was normally acceptable to use Group 2 and A parts but there again apart from the 13 wheels (which until Mark's reply above I didn't think were homologated) I can't think of any group 2 bits off hand which wouldn't have been allowed under the trials regs anyway. Perhaps it would be worth considering clarifying these rules in the book at some point. Mark, what was the outcome, as far as the ASWMC hillclimb & sprint regs are concerned, regarding Imp wheels? Regards, Stuart Cairney
ReplyDeletefrom Adrian Booth Simon thank you for clearing up points raised about engine changes however as for Skoda favorit engines I can not find any data to suport these units are more than 1289cc even the later felicia still apears to be a 1289cc unit although the currant fabia&octavia list a 1.4 push rod engine the unit I have used comes from a shortend M reg favorit (late braking) and bears the numbers 136X which shows it as a 1289cc high compression fuel injection unit
ReplyDeleteHi Adrian, Have just read preceeding correspondance. As a former pilot of a Czech Wonder Climber (and proud of it) the following may be of help regarding your particular situation. The 1289cc, 8 port head, all alloy, OHV engine used in the Favorit and in the Felicia is the same unit as was used in the 136 Rapid Coupe (the first time it was designated type 136). This unit was a development of the preceding 1289cc 5 port cast-iron head on alloy block, OHV engine, (also available at lesser capacities). I believe the 136 engine is still available in certain versions of the Fabia, but there is also one listed as 1.4 which is of VW origin. I still have lots of contacts for obtaining bits & pieces without paying the exhorbitant prices the the VW organisation introduced. Call or mail me if I can help. Best regards, Simon Robson
ReplyDeleteStuarts comment about the "engine mounting rule" is thought -provoking. There appears nothing in the way the rule is currently worded that prevents you fitting a type of 'cantilever' extension mounting that picks up on the original block holes and on the original rubber mount - thus moving the engine rearwards (or forwards for FWD ?) It has been done in the past ... but no names, no pack drill. Like a number of our rules, it is perhaps due for overhaul. If the principal aim is to stop the new engine/box being moved to gain advantage then perhaps the rule should read :- The rearmost mounting of the engine/gearbox unit must not be moved rearward (or forward in FWD class). No extension brackets permitted. It matters not a jot where the front mountings are, it is surely the above that counts? Nigel Brown
ReplyDeleteI should make it clear that when talking about engine mounting points I said "up to the bolt holes in the block, no one is going to object to a small adaptor that allows the mounting to bolt up to the right place even though the block has not / cannot be tapped for the right holes. We probably do need to review the wording of the rule but I would prefer something that measures the position of the engine directly and gets away from the potential miss interpertation of just what constitutes an engine mounting.
ReplyDeleteSomething to do with Front Axles and Spark Plug holes perhaps. The truth of the matter is that these engine transplants are so few and far between that it is difficult to justify spending the time. Most engines that anyone might want to fit into an Escort were fitted by Henry anyway. Beetle engines don't mount onto the chassis anyway - they are held in only by their attachment to the gearbox. VW has fitted all its interesting modern engines to the Golf range. I am open to suggestions as to which engine swaps might be considered, but it seems to me that most are stymied by the configuration rules. SIMON WOODALL