In my shed I have a set of 16 inch wheels whereas on my Tornado Typhoon I have 17 inch wheels fitted with Avon Tourist 4.50x17.
I need to replace the tyres and am considering which size wheel to use and whether to stay cross ply or go to radial.
I have been advised that a 165 radial will go on the 16 inch wheel and it has been suggested that I consider Coker 5.50R16 tyres.
I am not too worried about the gearing as all the tyres I am considering are in the diameter range of 25.98 - 27.17 inch (660mm-690mm) and if I have used my calculator correctly it only means a difference of circa 3 mph in top gear @4000 rpm.
Howver speed rating is important as the 17 inch affordable crossplys seem to have a max speed of 75 mph wheras the radial will allow a higher speed than that.
I need to replace the tyres and am considering which size wheel to use and whether to stay cross ply or go to radial.
I have been advised that a 165 radial will go on the 16 inch wheel and it has been suggested that I consider Coker 5.50R16 tyres.
I am not too worried about the gearing as all the tyres I am considering are in the diameter range of 25.98 - 27.17 inch (660mm-690mm) and if I have used my calculator correctly it only means a difference of circa 3 mph in top gear @4000 rpm.
Howver speed rating is important as the 17 inch affordable crossplys seem to have a max speed of 75 mph wheras the radial will allow a higher speed than that.
I will only be using the car 'on the road' so a true raod pattern tyre is required.
Any suggestions?
PS If anyone has some tyres for sale please let me know
Hi Tony, I have 5.0 x 16" Coker Beck's for my Liege, but these are Crossply not Radial. They are again a motorcycle pattern (like the standard Liege factory fittment of Avon SM MkII ), rather than a car pattern and therefore have a slightly rounded profile, nevertheless they are considerably better in mud than the Avons. They are available from a supplier in Farnborough who imports them from the USA at circa 짙95 each, so not cheap !! We also submitted the Firestone ANS pattern in 5.0 x 16", and this is now on the approved list too. Some of the other Liege guys use it and like it. It is slightly less rounded than the Coker. These are available from the same supplier and are also imported from the USA, and are about exactly the same cost, funnily enough !! You can see both patterns on the Liegecars website, (follow the link from the Classical Gas Links page), in the photo's section. Let me know if you want more detail. SimonR
ReplyDeleteI have 4 5.75x 16 Michelin X radials which were used on
ReplyDeleteLondon Taxis. Use them on my Dellow on 600x16 rims. They are used but have a good
tread depth if you are interested
Mudplugger2
I use 5.25 x 16" or 5.50 x 16" Avon HM Tourist cross plies on the front of my Dellow. They are quite good for cross plys. The 5.50 is a lot beefier and taller than the 5.25. Radial taxi tyres usually come in 175 x 16 and are readily available in new or remould. They are very stiff with 4 ply walls. I believe that both Mitchelin and Avon now make 165x16 radials at about 짙90 each, I think that Lambrook or Vintage tyres might sell them. There is a story that Ron Lowe once said that to make Dellows handle better you should chuck away the 17" tyres.
ReplyDeleteHi Mark Thanks for the offer of the Michelins - what is your view as to whether they would fit on 4 inch wide rims? Tony
ReplyDeleteTony. You might find Longstone Tyres website useful. Taxi tyres marked 175x16 are actually 185 in section (see Longstone site. It is something obscure to do with London Taxi Regulations. These regulations are law as far as taxi tyres are concerned. No driver is allowed to fit anything that is not marked "Taxi" on the sidewall.) - so quite big tyres and quite stiff. They need to be on 5.5" wide rims as a minimum ideally. Have you considered 165x400 mm metric tyres? In the Sixties and Seventies some Ford Pop drivers used these on 16" Ford rims ( you will have discovered there are two types of Ford 16" - the really narrow rim used on the Prefect with 5.00/5.25x16 and the much more desirable Van rim that took 6.00x16's.). 400mm equates to only 15.75inches - but by polishing every scrap of paint off the seating area of the rim and using a touch of thinned washing-up liquid (as opposed to fistfuls of that pink lubricant that tyre firms slap on) - they were fitted on a 16" Ford rim. And were such a tight fit as to not suffer from spinning the valves out on trials. As to motorcycle tyres on cars. I am amazed that any car (Liege, Austin 7 or whatever) passes an MOT with these fitted. Motorcycle tyres are not designed to take any significant sidewall loading. Principally because bikes are leaned into corners and the loading is therefore mainly straight down through the sidewall. Secondary fact is that self-evidentally bikes are a lot lighter than cars. When used on a car the bike tyre's sidewall is subjected, when cornering, to much bigger side loads than were ever envisaged by the tyre designers. Under braking in a heavier car - or when fitted at back of a ballasted trials car - again the sidewall is taking a load that it was not designed for. The odd "clued-up" MOT man has failed vintage cars for just this reason i.e. 'tyres not fit for purpose'.
ReplyDeleteJust to qualify the motorcycle tyre bit. I know that sidecar tyres are built with stiffer sidewalls to cope with side loadings (which I suppose proves beyond doubt that non-sidecar tyres are unsuitable for cars) .... but there still remains the issue of overall car weight/weight transfer under braking/ballasted rear weight .... versus bike weight.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the suggestions - I see that Pirelli Cinturato have a size in 165/400 so I will consider. As an off the wall idea has anyone considered the use of 'Spacesaver' tyres as fitted to (for example) the Saabs and Subarus. Ebay have a variety for sale in 115/70x16 and 135/70x16 and whilst appreciating that they are originally designed for emergency use, I would have thought that if fitted to a vehicle that weighs anout 500 kg they may be a possibility. Or am I being just silly?
ReplyDeleteSpacesaver wheels may not have the tyre retention beads that more normal modern wheels have - so you might have problems if you run low pressures, or get a flat. Possibly the area for the tyre bead to seat might also be a different width, narrower for the narrower, lower profile tyres used on spacesavers. Only one way to find out though . . . Bri
ReplyDeleteI explored the possibility of using space savers because I wanted narrow tyres for Tweetie Pie BUT once I physically looked at the tread patterns and depth of tread I didn't follow it any further. Have a look Tony. The ones I saw were c--p patterns and seemed to only have 3 mm or so tread depth as new !! SimonR
ReplyDeleteI can confirm that spacesavers are nearly bald from new. I have 6 new spacesaver tyres, free to anyone who wants them but I don't think I will get many takers.
ReplyDeleteHi there,
ReplyDeleteAre they on wheels and if so what size wheel and
from what car are they off?.
Cheers,
Hifor2
They are off a Dellow and are not on wheels.
ReplyDeleteMudplugger2
Hi,
ReplyDeleteThanks but no thanks.
Cheers,
Hifor2.
Before
ReplyDeleteI have had a chance to measure the rims Nigel Brown has given a comprehensive
response which suggests they will not fit on 4inch rims and should only be
fitted on the 600X 16 wheels. I have set of Michelin tyres with good tread for
짙25 each. Let me know if you are interested.
Mudplugger2
-----Original
Message-----
From: tonybr96
[mailto:tony@brookbrooks.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 27 February 2008 08:07
To: Classical Gas, For Trials
enthusiasts
Subject: Re: Tyre Size
Recomendations
New Message on Classical Gas,
For Trials enthusiasts
Tyre Size Recomendations
Reply
Mudplugger 2 Could be interested in those Michelins - have you a phone no I can contact you on? You could email me on tony@brookbrooks.freeserve.co.uk if you prefer. Tony
ReplyDeleteTalking to Mudplugger 2 has raised some thoughts as to what other wheels (if any!) will fit onto an E93A hub. According to www.retro-rides.com the PCD of the 17 inch wheel is 178mm however if I have calculated correctly using the formula in www.western-towing.co.uk the PCD is 205mm (based on a measurement of 120.67mm between adjacent stud centres.) Can anyone confirm? I am sure many of you have already investigated this already so I would be grateful for your input. www.knwheels.co.uk have recently come back to me to say they can provide a minilite style wheel with a PCD of 205 for circa 짙95 in a 5.5x15 however I have asked whether this will clear the spigot on these hubs.
ReplyDeleteI make the pcd 205.3mm for a 5 stud wheel, having just worked it out by simple geometry, using your stud spacing measurement.
ReplyDelete205mm is the standard PCD of early VW's and 356 Porsches. Know colloquially as "Wide-5". I've fitted VW wheels on Ford axles and vice versa. They do fit, but as Graham Austin notes, its not quite the same and if they are not tightened down well above their normal torque settings they will shake themselves off. They therefore come under the category of "upon your own head be it". VW wheels come in 15" & 16" varieties.
ReplyDeleteOK Simon, As a side question to this am I right in my understanding regarding the wide-5 that of the 15" variety, the narrowest of these were 4J width ? And how can I find some ? SimonR
ReplyDeleteBrand new wheels can be obtained from VW Heritage, Have a look at
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vwheritage.com/vwh/VW-Beetle-Parts/Wheels/?templateID=vwh
For second hand, its good old E-Bay, or if you are really brave or understand "Yoof Culture" better than I do, you could brave your way into Volkszone
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/ If you then wanted to fit them to a Liege, you would need an adaptor
http://www.machine7.com/section.php?xSec=384
are geared to supplying adaptors to a variety of difference PCD's and claim to be happy to produce custom options. I know not what the Reliant PCD is, but I don't suppose its the same as any of the VW varieties
As Simon says, you can fit early 5-stud 15" and 16" VW wheels to an E93A but as the PCD's are different you have to be aware when fitting. If you just tighten the first nut right down into the taper then the wheel will end up off-centre and you will find the car has a tendency to yo-yo up and down - not a good idea. The trick is to tighten all 5 nuts at the same rate so that the wheel remains central. The nut tapers will be only touching on the outer edges due to the PCD difference. But you can reach a point where they are properly locked WITHOUT overtightening them and bending/snapping the studs. If in doubt use Loctite Nutlock. OK for low speed trials cars. BUT clearly you do this at your own risk.
ReplyDeleteThought you might like an update. I managed to borrow an early Beetle wheel off my second hand tyre shop. Whilst it fitted onto the studs, I had overlooked the offset in as much that the offset on the Ford wheel is some 75mm whilst on the VW wheel it is some 105mm. This 30 mm extra means that the wheel fouls the suspension so it is back to the drawing board. I can see me stopping all the research and taking the easy way out and ordering some 17inch crossply Excelsior tyres on the basis that they are the most cost effective way forward.
ReplyDeleteTony, no one told you have to reverse the VW wheels but then
ReplyDeletethey stick out too much and put a strain on the Ford wheel bearings. Better to
modify the wheel to the correct offset.
Mudplugger2