Andrew poses this question in his new "Wheelspin" e-magazine. My solution is to create a class 9. This would basically be for "Sporting Trials" cars with lights etc for the road. eg:- Cannons, The Dingo etc. Class 8 would remain for modified Dellows, Buggys, true specials, Trolls (and Dudley). The idea is that you would need an ACTC/MCC certificate to compete in class 8. This would be granted on the basis of your car being truely suitable to drive on the road and not of Sporting Trials origin or intent! Sticking my head above the parapet I volunteer to chair the eligibility committee.
You can throw the most severe challenge at class nine (restart on the slab at Simms?) or give them 20 marks penalty before they start an ACTC event.
If we want to limit the number of classes to eight then do away with class six. Any Beetles with a standard single Solex carb and an engine capacity of 1600cc or less go to class four. Over 1600 an/or non-standard carb go to class seven. This relies n the honesty of the driver just as it does for 1300 Beetles today in class 4.
Michael
An interesting idea Michael. But as a Class 8 competitor I really do not want to force the Cannons, Dingo etc. out of our class. I want to still make the trials competative but without resorting to hills which cause damage to classes 1 to 6. So how to do this, well you can always introduce restarts or multiple restars for Class 8. You can also use deviations for Class 8, not possible on lots of hills. But the easiest method is by using tyre pressure limits. Now my regular 'bouncer' Chris Phillips has come up with a cracking idea which has generally been well accepted by all he has mentioned it to. For Class 8 and perhaps also 7 the minimum tyre pressure on nominated hills would be a simple addition of the diamter of the driven wheel (always shown on the tyre wall) plus 'x' and 'x' could be a positive or negative number. So for example if an organiser states that for his event 'x' is +1 then on my 15 inch Troll wheels I would run at 16 p.s.i. On the same event a car with 18 inch wheels will run at 19 p.s.i. Then on another event 'x' may be -2 so I would run at 13 p.s.i. Also on the same trial 'x' may be +1 for Class 8 and say 0 or -1 for Class 7. A very simple system which the majority of marshals would soon well understand no doubt carefully guided by the competiter who would point out the tyre diameter and the car class and even do the arithmatic! Result, the same hills can be used for all cars without I hope breaking any of them but still making the event chalenging for the Class 8's and 7's So do not ban Class 8 or use ridiculously rough hills use the 'x' factor. Think about it, its a good idea. Stuart Harrold
ReplyDeleteSounds good in theory Stuart but I'm not convinced that marshals will cope with it. That's not to say I think they're incompetent but that many are friends, relatives and other helpers who turn out as a favour once a year but who are not actively involved in our sport. As an example, the marshal at the bottom of Simms was all set to let my tires down to 10psi rather than the 12 marked in the route book until we put him straight - as I trust others would have done too. The other problem is that some competitors will, quite legitimately, add ballast to their cars to improve the level of grip at the higher pressures. In turn they will notice a lower power to weight ratio and those who can afford to will pay for a more powerful engine - increasing the cost of entry to the sport still further. In any case it seems as if this debate has shifted substantially from my original message saying 'I think the Exeter was easier for Class 8 this year'! A bit of tinkering with the positioning of some or all of the restarts on Normans, Wooston, Tillerton, Simms or Tipley and a higher pressure restriction on Simms and it would have been a completely different event for Class 8, without any damage to the hills or any detriment to classes 1-6.
ReplyDeleteI like Stuarts idea, but even if it could be implemented would it stop certain cars anyway? Adrian Marfell for example is on 15" tyres and therefore is likely to have lower tyre pressures than the rest of Class 8, and I certainly dont think he needs other competitors to face some frm of handicap system to beat them. I agree with Ian that you can use the same hills but put in tough restarts to stop a specific class. The MCC missed out on various possibilities on this years Exeter, hence the high number of Golds again. As regards Michales point, I wouldnt like to see one of the saloon classes taken out in favour of another specialised class. If the specials can be stopped on events such as the Allen that are typically non-damaging, then they can certainly be stopped on the MCC events.
ReplyDeletePlease keep these ideas coming in, particularly if you're a Class 8 driver. My own view is that tinkering with the restart location, and/or tyre pressures, for Class 8 on a given hill will generally have an effect on other classes - Class 8 will wreck the spot and make it more difficult for everyone else. OK, so there may be some hills where this will be minimal - putting the Class 8 restart back on the slab at Simms for example - but I think there will be far more sections where the effect may be detrimental. To take up one of Ian's points - my view on this year's Exeter is that the killer sections were just having a collective 'good hair day' (for Classes 6/7/8) and we shouldn't assume that this year's result is in any way indicative of the future. I used my article as a springboard to try and get some of the 'stop Class 8 at all costs' gossip into the public domain so that we could all have a sensible debate. I hope I've succeeded. Andrew
ReplyDeleteAndrew, I think all Red Marlins should be in class 8. M
ReplyDeleteApart from the generally accepted idea that tyre pressures for Class 8 (and maybe 7) should be set even higher, why not include, as well, Adrian Marfell's idea on the Kyrle of discounting the hills for some classes. For those not familiar with the idea two of the hills on last year's Kyrle effectively ended at the point that the best competitor in the class reached. The best competitor was therfore given a 'clean' and all other entrants in the class had their actual score reduced by the same number of points. Surely there are enogh ideas to make the task of Class 8 difficult enough without the necessity for them to be asked to do one or two additional hills to top up their scores!
ReplyDeleteHaving not done the Kyrle for years, I was not aware of this 'discounted scores' idea. It's certainly a very interesting tactic for equalising the classes on sub-divided sections but would not, of course, work on MCC events which is where this debate started. Andrew PS - Mike. If for 'red' Marlins you mean 'maroon' Marlins (Messrs Vowden and Allen) then I'd probably agree!
ReplyDeleteIn my view the use of restarts is the most effective way to level the field a quick analysis of last years Allen reveals that the introduction of the restart on Little uplands caused a 55% failure rate in class 8 against 14% in the other classes. Guys Hill is the traditional class 6,7 & 8 killer 80% failed the restart whilst only 41% failed in the non restart classes. Andrew's concern that the restart area creates a difficult spot for the others to traverse needs to be watched but I do not think its is a big problem. Having attempted Guys before the event on road pressures it is not unknown to fail at the restart point even though it has not seen a spinning wheel for months. The other important fact is that organisers need to adapt restarts and pressure limits to the conditions on the day which may mean making the decisions on the day not a week before. This is obvousley much harder for the MCC with a route of 300 odd miles. The Exmoor trial last weekend as usual placed restarts very well!! using a route of non damaging sections. I have not seen the results yet but the gossip on the day suggested a crop of failures on one restart including 2 red and 1 maroon Marlins.
ReplyDeleteLots of good ideas here. On my original tyre pressure idea I am sure that each driver would assist the marshal in making the correct calculation and on 1 day events there are some very experienced marshals out there. I agree with Pete Harts suggestion, on 1 day events the tyre pressures and restart positions can be finalised on the morning of the event to take account of weather conditions. Tyre pressures can be given at the arrival at each hill. You can make things difficult for us class 8 and 7 lot without breaking all the other classes cars. Stuart Harrold
ReplyDeleteThe idea of matching tyre pressures to wheel diameter is quite interesting, but it struggles (rather than fails) on a couple of counts. 1) Is it reasonable to have different rules for different people in the same class? If that is the case, we could do away with classes altogether. 2) It fails the KISS test (Keep It Simple Stupid). Apart from the fact that what ever you may say about the quality of our marshals, they WILL get it wrong at least some of the time. (Exeter Organisers please note!) You have to consider that one of the secrets of the success of our sport is that most of the rules are obivious, uncomplicated, common sense.
ReplyDelete(Most of the competitors don't know what half the rules are, but it doesn't stop them having fun)
3) The relationship between grip and tyre diameter is far from simple. Firstly, even with parity of pressure, the 18" crossplies are at a disadvantage compared to their radial counterparts when hard. On the other hand, the 185x14 brigade are at a disadvantage when compared to the 165x15 under the same regime. Therefore trying to set a pressure based on wheel diameter is cruel to the big wheelers if you make the rule "diameter plus", and cruel on the 14 inchers if you say "diameter minus". I could make the reasoning even more complex by introducing the way that different tread patterns and wall strengths react differently to pressure changes, but as its not "you" that has spent the time with bits of paper on the workshop floor studying the effect of pressure on block gap and footprint I do not intend to go into detail here, but suffice to say that a tyre that works well at high pressure does not neccessarily work well at low, and vice versa. I know what tyres to use on high pressure events, and what to use on low.
Therefore it would not take long to work out how to get the best advantage from any formula. Thats why, on the Clee Hills the pressures vary from section to section and are not publicised in advance. Hopefully, everyone gets a chance to shine somewhere, and equally, gets clobbered somewhere else.