Whilst idly contemplating my new transport, one 1100cc Fiesta automatic, that will transport me around whilsy my ankle surgery heals I got to thinking Class 8 Specials. Take a small hatchback, Fiesta, Citroen AX, Peugeot 205 etc, junk the engine and box. Rip out the back suspension and floor and install a 1600cc or larger engine, box and suspension unit from another source. Other requirements would be ease of raising the supsension or fitting larger wheels or both and front suspension with not too much low down to get in the way. Leave the radiator in the front and plumb through the cabin, fit fuel tank in the front end and replace rear windows with acrylic sheet etc etc etc.
Just a thought! Any comments for, against, advantages, disadvantages or just to confirm that I want my head tested as I have a Locost to complete, a JC Midge to reinstate for the road and an Estelle to continue to modify.
Myke Pocock.
Sounds pretty sensible to me ... well, sensible compared with putting an MGB body on a VW Beetle chassis ... but maybe not quite as pretty. Andrew
ReplyDeleteYou've abviously been talking to Ed Holloway. he has a Fiesta engine in the back of his Mini. See for yourself in the item "Murrays March Hare - Brickhill Photos".
ReplyDeleteBut remember, two of the reasons that Class 8 Cars are little open two seaters are low weight and exellent visibility.
Or even a 2CV...... being very light and able to take 15" wheels without bodywork surgery. With a 2L 16V engine it would also turn a few heads when you blast away from the traffic lights! Keith.
ReplyDeleteO.K. you armchair experts! What do you think is the key to building a class 8 special.Weight? size? suspension?We will take for granted the driver skills.Give me your ideas. Ross Nuten.
ReplyDeleteI would go for a VW. Probably a buggy, perhaps a shortened sand rail with a type 4 engine. Lots of power and nice and strong. Michael
ReplyDeleteCan the turning circle on V.W. be inproved on standard.?
ReplyDeleteOne of the nice things about our sport is the variety of vehicles. So there is no "formula" answer to the what makes a good class 8 special. Whatever you choose has to match your driving style. The most successful drivers have, in general, used the same car for some time, and are at one with it. My original comments about Low Weight and Visibility still apply. In 1938 R A Macdirmid, leader of the "Three Musketeers" said "When all else is equal the man with the least amount of motorcar will climb the highest." Visibility allows you to make inch perfect positioning on restarts and corners. Rear engined cars probably have more outright grip, but front engined ones steer considerably better. This is far more imprtant than people realise. Very good rear axle location. All the Trolls, and the best updated Cannons all have 5-Link rear suspension. A short wheelbase for manoeverability. Most class 8's are between 78 & 85 inches. Less ruins your weight distribution, more restricts your turning. If you don't fancy a rear engined car, (which is probably the cheapest solution and nearest to a "turnkey" answer) why not consider modifying a Westfield or similar. They need a bit of strengthening perhaps, but technically they are very similar to a Troll.
ReplyDeleteWould a Westfield count as a production car? Class 5? or at least Class 7? Mark
ReplyDeleteI like these ABS Freestyle's http://www.funbuggies.co.uk/introduction.htm there were three on the Lands End. No idea if they are potentially competitive but look great. Michael
ReplyDeleteNo need to improve the turning circle on a VW Ross, it's good enough already. The problem is the lack of grip on the front end - on a loose surface you simply cannot steer round a corner and keep the power on. And that's on the flat... OK so some of you may be thinking that some of us can't steer in a straight line and keep the power on either but that's a different matter! The other thing to be said about Class 8 is that you need the right amount and the right sort of power. Too much power can be just as bad as not enough. Two V8s have been used in Class 8 in the relatively recent past. One was super smart, carried a lot of ballast and had a pokey engine. Span its wheels uncontrollably, even in third gear, and needed a custom system to spray oil directly onto the diff to stop it seizing up on sections! The other had an old and I think fairly tired Rover engine which was reputed to run on 7 cylinders at times (or was that just part of the myth?). Purred round in second gear and won the ACTC championship... Have to agree with Simon that one of the great things about the sport is the variety of vehicles which can win and the way in which different events favour different types of vehicle.
ReplyDeleteWhen I posted my question I didnt realise the
ReplyDeletenumber of replies it would lead to. Keep them coming as there are some very
interesting and knowledgeable people out there prepared to help us newcomers.
Just to stir things up a little more, the reason
for suggesting a small, rear engined hatchback was for a number of reasons.
Cost, if a car at the end of its normal years of useage is used and easily and
readily available (AX, 205, Fiesta, Nova). Age of donor engine/transmission
so that the technology is not to advanced and therefore relatively easy to keep
in order. Plentiful supply of base vehicle, engine, gearbox, suspension
unit/s so that the costs dont multiply due to poor supply. Three door shell
to keep weight down.
I have seen a Nissan Sunny (bit on the large
side though!) with a 2 litre Montego Turbo engine (anyone remember them? When was the last time
you saw one?) in the back used for grass track racing.
Next question. 1600cc engine, transmission,
drive shafts, suspension unit that would lend itself to the above
criteria and readily available?
Myke
Pocock.
I come back to what I said before about weight. Any saloon based car will be seriously overweight by class 8 standards. I accept that such a car would be a very cheap alternative, assuming you do not have to cost the considerable time required to get the engineering right. But even after you have got the engineering right, you would then still find that you are driving a frustratingly uncompetitive car. If time costs are not a consideration, and you have the technical ability to configure a rear-engined hatchback then you have the ability to take something like a Locost, which Haynes Manuals(*) tell you how to build, and re-engineer it into a Cannon/Troll style vehicle. Mr Haynes also tells you how to source most Locost components from a scrap Fiesta so it even fits with your initial theory.
ReplyDeleteOn a slightly different Tack, A Westfield would be a class 7 car if entered "out of the box" and if someone applies to ACTC to have the car listed which it currently is not. A Westfield was entered in the March Hare, and accepted in class 7 for that event only as it was being driven by a complete novice. His car was measured with an eye to adding it to the ACTC list if he wishes to continue. My original comment in this discussion strand imagined a modified car, perhaps with the wheelbase shortened and all the suspension mountings modified and strengthened to raise it all up to trials levels. (*) Haynes Manuals are offered cheap to MCC Members since we are talking cost
Simon, On a slightly different tack. Would ACTC accept a V8 Westfield in Class 7? All the V8's compete in class 8. Is there a capacity or number of cylinders limit? Michael
ReplyDeletetalking of V8's....for what particular reasons were the Flathead V8's of the pre WW2 era , successful in trials? ref. Allard, and others? and what price the idea of a redundant pre-WW2 chassis of some sort (V5 hopefully included) and a Flathead (american-type) Ford V8, for class 5(B)?? and why don't more people junk their SU carbs and fit home-built fuel injection? (megasquirt??)....apparently, even basic fuel injection, without an ignition tie-up, is better than the best of carbs! opinions please?
ReplyDeleteBack to Westfields...
ReplyDeleteThe V8 version of the Marlin was not approved, not because we (ACTC) did not want V8's in class 7, but because we wanted "All Marlins to be equal" even if some of them are "more equal than others". When John Parsons was running his Westfield SEi8 I asked him why he did not have it listed as a Class 7 car. His response was that he prefered playing with the Class 8 boys. This would not preclude an SEi8 being listed, but if we thought that there were hoards of 2-Litre Westfields waiting to come and play then the same restriction would be discussed as would the eligibility of the motrcycle engined versions.
1940's V8's....
The success of the V8's immediately post war ( that's post WW2 for you younger readers) was probably down to two factors. Firstly all the successful drivers happened to fancy using them, and success breeds success and secondly its all back to my weight theory. Shoehorn a V8 into a car that weighs much the same as a contemorary sports car and you have a great power to weight ratio. And the opposition were driving mostly standard or modified MGs. Don't forget also that these V8's, even with 3쩍 litres don't produce much power by todays standards .But your history book show you that as soon as the real lightweigts came along, the V8's day was done. As for building a '40s style V8 now, just remember that this strand is supposed to be about building a special on the cheap. Driven gently down the motorway with economy in mind you might get 10-12mpg out of one of these beasts. Then when you open it up on a section.... As for spares, Roger Ugalde has every set of bearings in the UK and they're already in the car!
having understood class 5(B) to be open to pre-ww2 specials yet-to-be-assembled, as distinct from those already registered and in extant...the most appropriate tack might be Austin seven chassis with ford running gear? both easily available, as are spares? how long before someone developes a 'Dellow?' (of course, they wouldn't have to rely on rocket tubes for a new chassis)
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Alistair that an 1172 Side-Valve in an Austin 7 chassis is THE way to go in Class 5. Especially since Keith Saunders has just upped the ante with his Kyrle result. Such a car would be easy to maintain, tax exempt (probably), classic in its appearance and fun to drive. Paul Clay already has an original one of these that his father built - lets see how he gets on on the Ilkley Trial in a couple of weeks.
ReplyDeleteAs for "how long before someone developes a 'Dellow?'" Surely the question should be "how long before someone develops a Wolseley Hornet Special?"
( Ooops, shouldn't have said that. J )
I met an interesting chap at the Yorkshire Kitcar Show yesterday who's created something along the lines you're talking about Myke. It's based on the Citroen Saxo, and although it's currently with track days in mind, his eyes lit up when I mentioned whether he'd thought about the possibilities of building a kit for trials. His current car has a motorcycle engine in the middle but he's building a variant with the Honda 2ltr 16v VTEC motor amidships. He has a website with a full breakdown of costs and is open to a range of kit options. He'll even supply a donor car. He's willing to do all the hard work or as much as you feel you can afford. It comes with a roll cage and he's even SVA'd it. You can find him at www.jmaautomotive.co.uk
ReplyDeleteHe'd love to hear from anyone interested.
Kind regards
Mark Milne
Augusts issue of Kit car has an article about this
ReplyDeletevery car. I have also been casting my eyes over rear engined Grass track racers.
I had originally envisaged a complete engine, suspension package to transpant in
one bit but looking at the article then grass track cars the technology of
making wishbones, suspension and mounting engines is not out of the question.
Still just thinking about it though!!!
However Augusts Which Kit Car mag has a very
interesting article on the Sylva Autokits new Riot. Rather like a compact 7 with
a rear engine, in the case of the featured car it has a Ford Puma 1.6 Zetec S.
Kit price is £2160 inc VAT and they estimate a build cost of 6K. Jack the
suspension up, fit underbody protection and spare wheels etc and away you go. I
know the Liege is a nice little motor and dont want to upset any owners but I
think this kit has more potential straight out of the box. Give Sylva a
call on 01507 588390.
At present I will just have to stick to Baldrick
though!
Myke Pocock.
I like the ABS Freestyle. There were at least three out on the Lands End http://www.classictrials.co.uk/LE2005Hoskin/LE05%20Hosk%20Mike%20Warr.JPG I don't know where they are made but theres more info on these web sites:- http://www.adrianstomcat.co.uk/ABSFreestyle.htm http://www.funbuggies.co.uk/index.htm Mind you they are not as good as my latest project! Michael
ReplyDelete