Christmas Quiz Q3 - A bit more up-to-date this time. This picture was taken on my first MCC trial (I was a passenger). The main question is what is the section?
Adrian has the right trial. It was the 1981 Exeter. Although I took part I didn't take the picture myself and I don't know the answer so we will have to arrive at it by consensus. I do remember the finish was in Sidmouth. - Michael
Now we know which MCC event I would go with Adrian on this, Normans Hump with the picture taken looking down from the first cross track. If correct the view is across to the road running up to Blackbury Castle and the top entrance to Wiscombe Park. The trees have grown a bit since then. I dont know the identify of the Imp driver do you Michael? I may be able to, when I get around to digging out my stuff from 1981, its in the loft and it may be a while. - Dudley
With the sun from the left of the picture (approx south) then the track would be approx running up to the SE and the road behind running NE ties in. Check Google Earth and see how it has changed (and see those field patterns to the other side of the A3052) . Have never seen Norman's in the daylight, but thirty years have passed since the young thirty four year old had his photo taken .
looking at Google Earth again it all fits in, the field hedges behind fit in exactly with the photo and the chap in the back seat looks familiar. Adrian is correct. Red MG correct.
I have just dug out the 1981 Exeter programme, and Normans Hump was not used that year. A hill called Bovey (os 192/203913) was used, from what I can remember it was on the same hillside but just before Clinton and Normans Hump. Also from what I can remember of trying to climb it in 1980 on my TriBSA outfit, it was a grass covered track, and was only used for a couple of years. In those days these hills were climbed late morning/afternoon, (first vehicle due 11.00) being the last hills, prior to the finish at Sidmouth.
Certainly the field behind is in line with the section and from Google Earth it is still there and not very far into the woods. In the dark we just seem to go around in circles! Was Bovey done by Class 8 recently?
Well done - It was a combined effort between Adrian, Dudley and the two Johns. I believe the hill is indeed Bovey. I took the picture from the February 1981 edition of Motor Sport which not only had a two page write-up but also had a picture of Ian Ramsay on Simms in his Beetle. The caption says "This 875cc Sunbeam Imp was conducted by A. Bee". Above there is a picture of John West in exactly the same place captioned "...Photographed at the summit of Bovey...." The report was written by Bill Boddy, who I believe also took the pictures, who I remember seeing at the foot of Fingle during the trial. Thats the link to Q2 because the passenger in Hutchison's V12 Allard Boddy on the Oct 38 Experts Trial is also Bill Boddy Thanks to the two John's we also have a lot of information on where the hill is. If you have Google Earth I have attached a KMZ file of the location. If not here is a low res picture You can access this on Google Maps here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=50+43'+00.99%22+N,+003+07'+42.80%22+W&ie=UTF8&ll=50.718743,-3.128572&spn=0.010461,0.028925&t=h&z=15&iwloc=addr&om=1 Michael
A meant to say that the picture of Ian Ramsay on Simms was on the front cover. Also I will have another go at attaching the KMZ file for you to access using Google Earth.
Michael - (1). Is it not possible that Bovey and Norman's Hump are the same section? According to my records, Clinton was first used in 1976 and Norman's Hump in 1978, but I cannot be sure that they were used under their current names. Your "pushpin" in the Google Earth image looks very much as if it's on the mid-section cross-track of Norman's Hump to me, particularly as the start of the section has that greater-than-90-degrees turn that we all know so well. (2). Q2. I'm really not sure that you're correct that this was taken on the 1938 Experts. I'd go with Simon's posting - http://groups.msn.com/ClassicalGasForTrialsenthusiasts/general.msnw?action=up_rec&ID_Message=3893 - as more likely. Andrew
Hi Andrew - Regarding the Bill Boddy pic Nigel Brown tells me it is the sister of the one he let you have for your site and is a photo of "Ken Hutchison (V12 Lincoln engined FGF 290) with Bill Boddy as bouncer on the Experts Trial, based at Dunster in October 1938"
Regarding Bovey picture I don't know. I agree the push pin looks like the Normans Hump crossroads. Perhaps the two Johns could come back on this. Now we have started this we need it right for the history book!
The picture and Google do line up, how far up the section and what it is called is another matter, it is near the bottom of the whole track where a cross track occurs on Google and appears to level out. The answer lies with Norman perhaps. Who was he? We do have Green lane and Tipley etc. A quick pic when crossing the track by a later runner might show it up . I usually creep around the woods slowly trying not to end up underneath the monster, except up the sections when it is equally important not to go too slow!
Simon deserves a bonus as regards the Allard picture. Although the two photographs came together as part of a small number of copies that Alan Allard kindly gave me many years ago - I think Simon, by noticing the standard tyres, is probably correct on this one. Different trial. The first photo on Andrew's site is 100% certainly the start at Dunster for the '38 Experts - clearly shows ultra-knobbly tyres (and no hub-caps). For the '39 Lawrence Cup, it was "plain tyres" - as CAN may puts it - and hub caps. And I agree with Simon that the gradient/background in the second photo do look like the WD land around the Pirbright/Bagshot area used for the Lawrence. Could well be the top section of Red Roads. Passenger certainly looks like Boddy again. Boddy did an excellent write-up on the '38 Experts so for confirmation I will have to try and see if he also did one on the Lawrence. Mind you, re-reading the Motor Sport account has thrown up a real conundrum. Boddy says that for the '38 Experts the brand new Hutchison car only had a V8. Tom Lush however says (in 'Allard -The Inside Story' MRP) that because Hutchison was disappointed with the power after his previous Allard V12, he had a brand new Lincoln V12 installed before the Experts. Certainly from then onwards the car was always referred to as being a V12. In Wheelspin I see that CAN May missed the Lawrence but then I spotted on the opposite page his write up on the two-day Abingdon Trial of 1939. On the second day the trial went into Wales and " .... I learned later that there was one real "stopper" used called Swan Song, which was climbed by only three - Mansell, Lines and Terras" When someone can identify a possible location for Swan Song, I will go and take some photos. I believe it is in the Llangollen area and that is just 'up the road' from me.
The "Norman" of Norman's Hump is Norman Higgins. MCC stalwart of the time, an Imp drriver if my memory is correct. I believe he was a a friend of Dennis Greenslade who can probably provide us with more information. Although I do not know for sure, It would not surprise me that "Bovey" was renamed in his honour after his death.
From old Exeter programmes:- 1979 Bovey Down ST2 Clinton 1981 Bovey Bovey Down Clinton 1982 Bovey Down Normans Hump Clinton 1983 Bovey Down Normans Hump Clinton 1985 Clinton 1986 Normans Hump Clinton 1979 Bovey Down was a section. 1981 Bovey was a section and Bovey Down had a timekeeper hence Spec Test?1982 Bovey Down had a timekeeper. ST? 1983 Bovey Down had a timekeeper.ST? 1985 Clinton only used. 1986 No Bovey. I cannot remember whether Bovey Down was used as a section and ST at the same time? I think Bovey Down ST might have been on one of the "horizontal" tracks between sections. What we need is someone with route cards from this era. Back to Wales, and Swan Song. There is a Swan Wood, which has a suitable looking track through it, that is in N Wales. It is to the NW of Mold off the A541 due S of the hamlet of Ysceifiog. The wood runs along side the Northern side of the A541 at Map Ref SJ 15015 70740.
Had a photo taken at a certain place, have more but that might reveal too much of the condition of a particular section, mind you, same for everyone. So those that do not look at Classical Gas should do. Be that as it may, this pic is taken from above a restart area and shows the same background as that of the Imp photo I would say? Hope the photo gets through as I had to resize it and then find it etc etc.
And this was taken further up, showing more of the background over the trees, could it have been taken from the top? The origional shows people at the bottom clearly but maybe there is a flattened out bit half way up?
Now here's a real co-incidence. I was about to post a link to some photos I took on Friday at the Pre-war Austin Seven Clubs winter trial at Butts Quarry, when I thought I'd re-read this thread to catch up. The co-incidence is the driver of one of the only two Austin Seven Saloons at this event is an Alan Bee. Could this be the same A.Bee driving the Sunbeam? Or is it just a pseudonym? Anyway here's the link http://hoits.smugmug.com/Other%20Trials/433938 I hope you enjoy the photos. I won't be at the Exeter, so good luck to you all! See you at Clee. Dave Cook
Check my message 24 re Norman's Hump, I gave the Trial directions to Norman's Hump to my Brother-in-law who walked up and took the photos , click on Bovey 3 for the same view as the old photo. Has to be the same background.
Don't recognise it- Panorama?
ReplyDeleteOrange on the Lands End?
ReplyDeleteRoly-Poly on the Lands End? Pete
ReplyDeleteAnd for something completely different ----- Yeo Vale 1992 Land's End. Himself competed in the '93 Land's End
ReplyDeleteNormans hump .Adrian D
ReplyDeleteHindon on the Lands End?
ReplyDeleteAdrian has the right trial. It was the 1981 Exeter. Although I took part I didn't take the picture myself and I don't know the answer so we will have to arrive at it by consensus. I do remember the finish was in Sidmouth. - Michael
ReplyDeleteNow we know which MCC event I would go with Adrian on this, Normans Hump with the picture taken looking down from the first cross track. If correct the view is across to the road running up to Blackbury Castle and the top entrance to Wiscombe Park. The trees have grown a bit since then. I dont know the identify of the Imp driver do you Michael? I may be able to, when I get around to digging out my stuff from 1981, its in the loft and it may be a while. - Dudley
ReplyDeleteWith the sun from the left of the picture (approx south) then the track would be approx running up to the SE and the road behind running NE ties in. Check Google Earth and see how it has changed (and see those field patterns to the other side of the A3052) . Have never seen Norman's in the daylight, but thirty years have passed since the young thirty four year old had his photo taken .
ReplyDeletelooking at Google Earth again it all fits in, the field hedges behind fit in exactly with the photo and the chap in the back seat looks familiar. Adrian is correct. Red MG correct.
ReplyDeleteI have just dug out the 1981 Exeter programme, and Normans Hump was not used that year. A hill called Bovey (os 192/203913) was used, from what I can remember it was on the same hillside but just before Clinton and Normans Hump. Also from what I can remember of trying to climb it in 1980 on my TriBSA outfit, it was a grass covered track, and was only used for a couple of years. In those days these hills were climbed late morning/afternoon, (first vehicle due 11.00) being the last hills, prior to the finish at Sidmouth.
ReplyDeleteCertainly the field behind is in line with the section and from Google Earth it is still there and not very far into the woods. In the dark we just seem to go around in circles! Was Bovey done by Class 8 recently?
ReplyDelete50 degrees 43' 00.99" N, 003degrees 07' 42.80" W , where photo taken whatever it is called.!
ReplyDeleteWell done - It was a combined effort between Adrian, Dudley and the two Johns. I believe the hill is indeed Bovey. I took the picture from the February 1981 edition of Motor Sport which not only had a two page write-up but also had a picture of Ian Ramsay on Simms in his Beetle. The caption says "This 875cc Sunbeam Imp was conducted by A. Bee". Above there is a picture of John West in exactly the same place captioned "...Photographed at the summit of Bovey...." The report was written by Bill Boddy, who I believe also took the pictures, who I remember seeing at the foot of Fingle during the trial. Thats the link to Q2 because the passenger in Hutchison's V12 Allard Boddy on the Oct 38 Experts Trial is also Bill Boddy Thanks to the two John's we also have a lot of information on where the hill is. If you have Google Earth I have attached a KMZ file of the location. If not here is a low res picture You can access this on Google Maps here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=50+43'+00.99%22+N,+003+07'+42.80%22+W&ie=UTF8&ll=50.718743,-3.128572&spn=0.010461,0.028925&t=h&z=15&iwloc=addr&om=1 Michael
ReplyDeleteA meant to say that the picture of Ian Ramsay on Simms was on the front cover. Also I will have another go at attaching the KMZ file for you to access using Google Earth.
ReplyDeleteAttachment: Bovey.kmz
Michael - (1). Is it not possible that Bovey and Norman's Hump are the same section? According to my records, Clinton was first used in 1976 and Norman's Hump in 1978, but I cannot be sure that they were used under their current names. Your "pushpin" in the Google Earth image looks very much as if it's on the mid-section cross-track of Norman's Hump to me, particularly as the start of the section has that greater-than-90-degrees turn that we all know so well. (2). Q2. I'm really not sure that you're correct that this was taken on the 1938 Experts. I'd go with Simon's posting - http://groups.msn.com/ClassicalGasForTrialsenthusiasts/general.msnw?action=up_rec&ID_Message=3893 - as more likely. Andrew
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew - Regarding the Bill Boddy pic Nigel Brown tells me it is the sister of the one he let you have for your site and is a photo of "Ken Hutchison (V12 Lincoln engined FGF 290) with Bill Boddy as bouncer on the Experts Trial, based at Dunster in October 1938"
ReplyDeleteAndrews picture is at http://www.wheelspin.info/img/1938/19380000_03.jpg
Perhaps Nigel can confirm.
Regarding Bovey picture I don't know. I agree the push pin looks like the Normans Hump crossroads. Perhaps the two Johns could come back on this. Now we have started this we need it right for the history book!
Michael
The picture and Google do line up, how far up the section and what it is called is another matter, it is near the bottom of the whole track where a cross track occurs on Google and appears to level out. The answer lies with Norman perhaps. Who was he? We do have Green lane and Tipley etc. A quick pic when crossing the track by a later runner might show it up . I usually creep around the woods slowly trying not to end up underneath the monster, except up the sections when it is equally important not to go too slow!
ReplyDeleteThis message has been deleted by the author.
ReplyDeleteSimon deserves a bonus as regards the Allard picture. Although the two photographs came together as part of a small number of copies that Alan Allard kindly gave me many years ago - I think Simon, by noticing the standard tyres, is probably correct on this one. Different trial. The first photo on Andrew's site is 100% certainly the start at Dunster for the '38 Experts - clearly shows ultra-knobbly tyres (and no hub-caps). For the '39 Lawrence Cup, it was "plain tyres" - as CAN may puts it - and hub caps. And I agree with Simon that the gradient/background in the second photo do look like the WD land around the Pirbright/Bagshot area used for the Lawrence. Could well be the top section of Red Roads. Passenger certainly looks like Boddy again. Boddy did an excellent write-up on the '38 Experts so for confirmation I will have to try and see if he also did one on the Lawrence. Mind you, re-reading the Motor Sport account has thrown up a real conundrum. Boddy says that for the '38 Experts the brand new Hutchison car only had a V8. Tom Lush however says (in 'Allard -The Inside Story' MRP) that because Hutchison was disappointed with the power after his previous Allard V12, he had a brand new Lincoln V12 installed before the Experts. Certainly from then onwards the car was always referred to as being a V12. In Wheelspin I see that CAN May missed the Lawrence but then I spotted on the opposite page his write up on the two-day Abingdon Trial of 1939. On the second day the trial went into Wales and " .... I learned later that there was one real "stopper" used called Swan Song, which was climbed by only three - Mansell, Lines and Terras" When someone can identify a possible location for Swan Song, I will go and take some photos. I believe it is in the Llangollen area and that is just 'up the road' from me.
ReplyDeleteThe "Norman" of Norman's Hump is Norman Higgins. MCC stalwart of the time, an Imp drriver if my memory is correct. I believe he was a a friend of Dennis Greenslade who can probably provide us with more information.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do not know for sure, It would not surprise me that "Bovey" was renamed in his honour after his death.
From old Exeter programmes:- 1979 Bovey Down ST2 Clinton 1981 Bovey Bovey Down Clinton 1982 Bovey Down Normans Hump Clinton 1983 Bovey Down Normans Hump Clinton 1985 Clinton 1986 Normans Hump Clinton 1979 Bovey Down was a section. 1981 Bovey was a section and Bovey Down had a timekeeper hence Spec Test?1982 Bovey Down had a timekeeper. ST? 1983 Bovey Down had a timekeeper.ST? 1985 Clinton only used. 1986 No Bovey. I cannot remember whether Bovey Down was used as a section and ST at the same time? I think Bovey Down ST might have been on one of the "horizontal" tracks between sections. What we need is someone with route cards from this era. Back to Wales, and Swan Song. There is a Swan Wood, which has a suitable looking track through it, that is in N Wales. It is to the NW of Mold off the A541 due S of the hamlet of Ysceifiog. The wood runs along side the Northern side of the A541 at Map Ref SJ 15015 70740.
ReplyDeleteHad a photo taken at a certain place, have more but that might reveal too much of the condition of a particular section, mind you, same for everyone. So those that do not look at Classical Gas should do. Be that as it may, this pic is taken from above a restart area and shows the same background as that of the Imp photo I would say? Hope the photo gets through as I had to resize it and then find it etc etc.
ReplyDeleteAttachment: Bovey 3.jpg
It was taken a couple of hours ago by my Bro-in-law by the way.
ReplyDeleteAnd this was taken further up, showing more of the background over the trees, could it have been taken from the top? The origional shows people at the bottom clearly but maybe there is a flattened out bit half way up?
ReplyDeleteAttachment: Bovey6.jpg
Now here's a real co-incidence. I was about to post a link to some photos I took on Friday at the Pre-war Austin Seven Clubs winter trial at Butts Quarry, when I thought I'd re-read this thread to catch up. The co-incidence is the driver of one of the only two Austin Seven Saloons at this event is an Alan Bee. Could this be the same A.Bee driving the Sunbeam? Or is it just a pseudonym? Anyway here's the link http://hoits.smugmug.com/Other%20Trials/433938 I hope you enjoy the photos. I won't be at the Exeter, so good luck to you all! See you at Clee. Dave Cook
ReplyDeleteCheck my message 24 re Norman's Hump, I gave the Trial directions to Norman's Hump to my Brother-in-law who walked up and took the photos , click on Bovey 3 for the same view as the old photo. Has to be the same background.
ReplyDelete