Yes, I know it's early but take a look at this photograph and see if you can help. Click Here for a Bigger Version
Martin Pratt from Chester Motor Club asks:-
I wonder if you or any of your contributors can throw any light on the following. I have a copy of a photograph of what appears to be an Allard Special, Reg No. FGP 750, climbing this section on the 1946 Liverpool MC Jeans Gold Cup Trial. This event ran on the 25/5/1946 according to the notes on the back of the original. Does anyone know anything further about this, or any other similar events run in N Wales.
The exact location of the hill is not stated but it was the final hill on the 'Jeans' trial. There is a short acount of this trial and a list of winners in C.A.N. May's book 'More Wheelspin'. Steve Nikel
ReplyDeleteW.C.Butler won the Wade Cup with a V8 special (P187) ! ?
ReplyDeleteAndrew Kirby thinks the car is the Allard light weight.He believes the car is still around but in pieces.The driver in 1947 is likely not to be Mr Allard him self.
ReplyDeleteOK, anorak on.... To narrow it down you can choose from the following list of hills used in the event:-
ReplyDeletePennant
Cymmo 1 & 2
Dholhir 1 & 2
Dolywern 1 - 4
Tynymnydd 1 & 2
Alt-y-bady
The driver is either Freddie Gilson or Jack Guest, as the only Allard entrants not known to have post-war cars.
In 1946 the last hill was Swansong?
ReplyDeleteThe greasy patch on my anorak wants to know is there a prize!!
ReplyDeleteIs that the same car - page 128 - rear view (More Wheelspin' of course ) driven by Leonard Potter in the 1947 'Colmore', Allard . Could be 250 not 750? In 1946, however, he is reported as running up a bank and damaging his radiator at Gyffylliog in the 'Jeans'
ReplyDeleteNo 100% correct answers here yet, although John is correct, it is Swan Song Hill. Martin Pratt, who sent me the photo, and has passed me a second one taken at the same time, offers a bottle of wine to the first person to name the driver. I am going to define that as first person to post the name of the driver here. I am saying that as although I don't know the answer myself I have had a couple of emails from two different triallers, both naming the same person and I have reason to believe they both know what they are talking about. Martin also says :- There are so many questions I would like answers to, but perhaps we should start by naming the driver? I would dearly like to find a copy of the route card for the event plus an entry list, I just need the info, not the originals and I can get on with researching the car and driver. The car does still exist, I have a photo apparently taken last year.
ReplyDeleteWith reference to www.vehiclelicence.gov.uk and following "vehicle enquiry", and searching for PGP750 Allard, It appears that this car is still taxed and/or MOTed.
ReplyDeleteGo for Leonard Potter on 'Swansong' , he won the following year and used the same car in the 'Colmore'.
ReplyDeleteI have been jarred into life by seeing Simon's mention of Alt-y-Bady. This is a place that my dear late father used to mention often. I'm sure I was driven up it by him when I was a young child on one of our many excursions along the Welsh mountain roads on a Sunday. I have never known where it was or whether it actually existed but have always believed it to be near Llangollen. Can anyone help?
ReplyDeleteAlt-y-Bady or Allt-y-Bady (1934 MCC Llandudno Trial) orAllt y Badi. This "road" is situated just south of the outskirts of Llangollen. It appears to run from Pengwern Mill Farm ( OS SJ21915 41282) in a SW direction to Finger Farm ( OS SJ20495 39355 ). Or go to www.multimap.co.uk , put "Llangollen" in the find box, and you will see the road marked just below Llangollen on the 1:50000 and 1:10000 scale maps. There is also an aerial view available.
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or are these two photos taken at EXACTLY the same time? That is, the first picture shows a photographer on the left who appears to be taking a picture of the guy standing in the background, just over the horizon, on the left. How did the two photos ever find their way to the same place?
ReplyDeleteDoug - Amazing considering there was no digital Michael
ReplyDeleteMy sincere thanks to John Salter. I now have a very sentimental mission to complete.
ReplyDeleteJohn has the right section but as too the driver Michael
ReplyDeletePage 128 of the Bible shows the rear of the same car at Kineton a year later with Leonard Potter driving. Then on page 182 ( I quote) 'Leonard Potter, who had hitherto run his Allard more or less in the form which it had been built for Hutchison, with the spare wheels carried one either side of the scuttle, was now seen completely to have remodelled the rear of the car since the 'Cheltenam'. The 'Bugatti' tail had been removed, the spare wheels were carried on a sort of outrigger bracket on the extreme rear of the chassis, a huge flat petrol tank had been fixed over the axle and ballast was carried also. This redistribution of weight made a marked difference in the degree of wheel-grip obtained'. --- Not alone there!! So that was later in 1947 . C A N May had an ex Hutchinson Ford ( see page 29) 3622cc. Potter's was 3917cc (Mercury?) He was supposed to have damaged his radiator, or is that borrowed one off the car he later owned?
ReplyDeleteDavid Kinsella writes in his Allard tome that by 1942 the ex Ken Hutchinson 1938 Allard FGP750 had passed into the ownership of Lady Mary Grosvenor. Now I never met the Lady but I do know that she was a member and patron of Chester MC. In fact I did compete in the Lady Mary Grosvenor Trophy trial, organised by Chester MC, back in the late nineteen sixties. I believe that the Lady was a trials driver herself so I suggest that the picture depicts her driving the Allard, or at the very least passengering for her nominated driver. Best regards, David Alderson
ReplyDeleteFGP 750 was built for Sydney Allard and registered in September 1938. It was relatively lightweight by Allard standards but not known specifically as the Lightweight Allard. The very first event for FGP 750 was the October 1938 Experts Trial based at Dunster and Sydney won the Best Unlimited Cup. In December 1938 the car was lent to Martin Soames who took a Premier Award in the Gloucester Trial. In 1942 it was sold to Ken Hutchison. Come 1946 and FGP 750 was owned by Lady Mary Grosvenor of Eaton Hall, Eccleston, Cheshire - one of the daughters of the Duke of Westminster. She entered it in the very first post-war motoring event, a quarter-mile sprint at Elstree Airfield organised by the VSCC that Easter. In May 1946 Lady Mary Grosvenor (b.1911 – d.2000) drove the Allard in the Jeans Gold Cup Trial and a short while later she also used the car at the very first post-war Shelsley Walsh. After just these few events in her ownership the car was sold to a gentleman from Anglesey called Pritchard. The car does still exist. Pre-war, Lady Mary drove a Riley Sprite in hillclimbs and rallies. Post- war she drove the Allard, a Bugatti Type 35, an Alta and a Frazer Nash Le Mans Replica. F. David (Dave to CAN May) Gilson's car was the first 4 seater pre-war Allard, registered AUK 795, and he did quite a number of trials with it.
ReplyDeleteRef. the above. Michael, where did all the funny symbols appear from ??
ReplyDeleteNigel, You have some redundant html stuff, probably because you cut and pasted it from a program that had a lot of fancy formatting codes. If possible paste as plain text. Michael
ReplyDeleteAaaaah. Will try that next time. Other forums have an edit button so poster can correct cock-ups and typo's. Can you edit the rubbish out of mine ? All the best.
ReplyDeleteThis message has been deleted by the author.
ReplyDeleteJohn Lees mentions Len Potter's ex-Hutchison car having the "Bugatti tail removed". This has to be FGF 290 (Tailwagger 1), a V12 Lincoln engined car built for Hutchison with just such a body in 1938. Hutchisons previous V12 Allard (ELX 50) was a "slab sided" car and is pictured on page 123 of 'More Wheelspin' being driven by Len Parker.
ReplyDeleteCould be the chauffeur driving, vast difference in size ! A 'lady' would have been wearing a headscarve like the passenger.
ReplyDeleteAnd the car on page 128 could be FGF 290
ReplyDeleteFor a picture of FGF290 see www.ferret1.co.uk/fwanted.html . Taken on 1938 Lawrence Cup Trial.
ReplyDeleteGood point John. I am guessing but maybe the lady passenger was a new member of staff who had transgressed in some way and was taken out to frighten the wits out of her and teach her a lesson ! I did some business with Roger Collings (ex VSCC president) a few years ago and his wife said :- " If you give him a good discount he'll take you for a ride in the Maybach (this was his World War 1 Zeppelin engined, chain-drive Mercedes special), if you don't - then he'll take you for two rides." I gather from basic research, by the way, that Lady Mary quote "swore like a trooper". What with that and driving proper cars I rather wish I'd met the lady.
ReplyDeleteAnd how those Allards got chopped about, a friend in Penzance had a road version, he did not fancy the look too much so he put a Ferrari shark- nose (Grand -Prix) on it!
ReplyDeleteSounds pretty bad. I do know that a lot of Allards ended up in Cornwall in the days when they were cheap and fast. Apparently quite a number of students at the Camborne Mining School/College brought them down there as a means of impressing mates and/or local ladies. They eventually found their way into a scrapyard not too far from Camborne.
ReplyDeleteA bicycle would impress a Camborne girl. He had his Allard for a number of years, may have taken it over to California. I will try to get hold of him to see what his reg No. was.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you do ever find out the reg. number I will pass it on to Gavin Allard (Sydney's grandson) who keeps a register for the club. All the best.
ReplyDeleteChristmas Quiz Answer: The winners of a bottle of wine are David Alderson and Nigel Brown for correctly identifying the Allard Driver on Swansong Hill on the 1946 Liverpool MC Jeans Cup Trial as the Lady Mary Grosvenor. One bottle from me and the other from Martin Pratt who posed the question and would like to have any more information and especially a route card. An honary award of a drink at the end of the Exeter to John Lees for correctly identifying the secytion as Swansong Hill. Nigel Brown very kindly sent me another picture of Lady Mary Grosvenor, who has been described as a "big lass". This time in her Riley Sprite on the 1939 RAC Rally. Nigel has sent me some more pictures and there will shortly be a second question to keep you occupied while you have a drink after tomorrows Christmas Pud The Lady Mary Grosvenor on her Riley Sprite on the 1939 RAC Rally
ReplyDeleteMichael. Very good of you. May I ask you to open 'my' bottle on Christmas Day (or whenever suits) and enjoy it? I think you have done sterling work in running this site so please accept it as a tiny thank-you from me. All the very best for Christmas and 2008. Hope to see you in 2008 on some muddy hill. Cheers.
ReplyDeleteI have the Motorsport report written by Jenks in July 1981 detailing the history of FGP 750. I scanned it and will happily send it to anyone who contacts me on breakfree@blueyonder.co.uk At the time it was last seen in big bits in Sowerby, North London. TTFN
ReplyDeleteJohn Rhodes, (in the yellow Dutton, 141 on the Exeter, see you there).
They say that what goes around, comes around. I picked up on John Lees posting in the Quiz Q3 Thread about Swan Wood, had a look at it on the Ordnance Survey site and noted that the location he gives is less than mile down the road from Afon-Wen, which is where Chester Motor Club ran its "Lady Mary Grosvenor" trial in the 70's.
ReplyDelete(Cue twilight zone music....)