How are you these days, Adrian? Long time no see! For Ed...a an alternative, what about a nice Bike carb set-up? OK, not quite ''in period''...but neither is a X-flow... Bike carbs will give exactly the same sort of fuelling performance of both SU carbs, and the likes of Webers or Dellortos. which is to say, the best of both worlds, for but a modest sum. they are extremely well made, reliable, easy to 'tune', compact in width...and will frighten the other Dellow drivers when you 'pop the hood?'
Adrian, I will call you tomorrow evening. Alistair, Thanks for the info, but to source and then sort out bike carbs is a bit beyond my limited mechanical skills, but if anybody has a set up already and need a car to try them out on mmmmmm....... I could be persuaded. Ed
Why would you want to put SU carbs on a Ford engine? They never work well on a Ford. A pair of Webbers or Delauto's is the answer, once set up they will require no adjustment for years. Stuart Harrold
Stuart - I'm not sure that you can be quite so categorically negative about SUs on a Crossflow. Although I'm going the twin Weber route for my Marlin engine transplant - and b****y complicated it's turning out to be as well - there are plenty of people (including at least two Troll owners that I know of) who swear that twin SUs are a better set-up if you can find the correct, rarer-than-hen's-teeth, manifold. Andrew
''''Ed.....Give Bogg Brothers a call on 01944 738234...they will no doubt advise you on how to source, if need be.....they are pretty much THE experts in the fitment of bike carbs to car engines...but then, that's my opinion, and I've known them all a long time!
Twin SUs on a Ford is something the yeller Dutton will be trying at some point - the question is, how big? Twin 1-1/2 or 1-3/4? We don't want to gain too much at the top end if it ruins the bottom end for PCTing. Which is why it'll also be trying a single 1-3/4 SU if it ever comes home . . . or if John comes and take his pile of metal tubing out of my garage . . . (only kidding Mr. Rhodes sir . .) Currently we run a FOMOCO 950 carb suitably tweeked - and the only place we needed more oomph was on the Jack and Jill hills on the Ross on Wye event. A manifold for twin SUs on a Ford went on ebay recently - I got mine via the same a few years ago, same for the single - that came from an autograss racer, complete with mud. Bri
Just to make you jealous, I hope to have attached an image of twin 1 1/2 H4 carbs on my virgin un-trialled Vincent. It is an very compact C/T manifold which I found at Beaulieu autojumble many years ago, Also, a Bogg Bros manifold and Yamaha R6 carbs I saw at there establishment in Yorkshire last week. Both setups cost around £400. I bought brand new H4 carbs which cost an arm and a leg, even 12 years ago. Bogg Bros quote around the same for a complete manifold and carb set up. You can get a good set of R6 carbs off ebay for circa £60. As for SU manifolds, they were made by firms such as VW Derrington, C/T (Conversion and Tuning Centre), Aquaplane ,and Mitcham Motors. I have seen twin HS4, twin H4, Twin Stromberg CD150, Twin 1 3/4, and single 1 3/4 or 2" manifolds for sale over the past couple of years.
Thanks for all the advice and discussion, all very helpful. I myself prefer the SU's as they tend to be more flexible on the hills and work at almost any angle even on the steepest of hills. What they may loose at the top end is more than made up by the smoothness of the power lower down. I ran a pair of 1.5"'s on my Imp's 915cc and they were by far the best set up for on the hills. As for what size to use have a read of 'How to Build & Power Tune SU Carbs' by Des Hammill. He suggest twin 1.5's for 1200cc-1600cc, but 1.75's for more heavily modified engines. For single carbs, the very least fore a 1600cc should be 1.5, but more likely a 1.75 or 1.875 (17/8"). Hope that helps. Ed
Having only just joined and read Stuart's blanket condemnation of SU's on Fords ... may I comment from a totally practical perspective ? When I converted my Dellow (ECL 787) to 'modern' Ford power in the 70's, I chose to use a 1500 pre-crossflow unit. Bored out to 1650 and fitted with a Newman cam specifically designed for trials. Head was very lightly modded as per an article in C&CC. I bought a new C/T manifold and fitted twin 1.25" SU's and NOT the 1.5" size. Went like a train, never missed a beat in many years trialling, torquey but would rev. to 7,000 quite happily. Never once failed to get up Crooked Mustard or Simms, fabulous engine. So, if someone at the bar tells you Fords and SU's don't work ... be tempted by the immortal Mike Hailwood comment > "They are spherical and they bounce".
Having now PCT-ed, sorry, "car-trialled" the yeller Dutton with SU, and a decent road test, It certainly seems to go okay. Revs to the limiter through all the gears, but also pulls from less than tick-over on the hills, if you know what I mean. Stopped working once when the lifting pin bounced up and jammed the piston - luckily! Otherwise newly rebuilt engine (see Johns write ups in CompleteKitcar magazine for trialling fun with a yeller Dutton) might be sounding a bit rough. Must remember to either stick a circlip on it, or remove it. Piccie attached - note the subtle hole in the bonnet, previously used to allow the FoMoCo carb and filter to poke thro, and also allows the twin SU setup you can just see in the bottom right to fit - only takes 20mins on a warm day to swop over. A bit longer on a cold day with numb fingers . . . Spare SUs currently on ebay if anyone wants any . . . Bri (mr.bricol)
Sorry Stuart I have to disagree with you, I'm one of the Troll owners who used twin 1.5inch SU's on a 1700cc Ford Kent X-flow, it was fairly successful I think you would agree. The manifold was actually a proprietry casting (could have been C/T, had a lightening flash cast into it) made to accept twin Stromberg's which do not have handed flanges. I made up a pair of same handed SU's both with the float chamber in front, it worked a treat and after setting up on the rolling road, fitted with needles turned down on the lathe to something like hyperdermic syringes, the engine characteristics were perfect for trials. Parallel torque and power curves all the way through the range, no hesitation, instant throttle response, just a slight reduction in the possible maximum top end power given by twin Webers or Dellortos but that's not really relevent in a trials car. I still had 110 bhp on tap, more than enough in a 550kg trials car. Incidentally when I originally built VW Shorty it had a 1600 engine with a single 1.25 SU centrally mounted on a heated inlet manifold. This was perfected for me by a boffin friend from Cranfield. The gas speed was phenominal (circa 3 foot long inlet tracts!) again throttle response was instant and power more than adequate for purpose. All the bits have come back to me in a box with the car although someone has fitted twin Solex downdraughts to the engine. Haven't tried it yet but I bet it doesn't go as well as it used to.
Further to David's post. C/T manifolds did use a 'Lightning flash' as a trademark. A pair of 1.25" SU's are good for around 90bhp and their smaller size means that even at very low engine speeds there is still a decent gas velocity and therefore flexibility when pulling off slippery restarts. A pair of 1.5" SU's, as David found, are good for around 110bhp and his Troll was certainly an excellent advert for well set up SU's on a Ford. I also ran my 1600 trials Beetle on a 1.25" SU and it pulled far more strongly than a standard carb. I also ran with a 1.25" Minnow Fish for a while and that was way, way better again than the SU - but there were carb freezing issues in winter that even the proper Fish 12 volt intake heater failed to resolve.
OK, so my first posting was only half a message, I'll try again:-)) I had no trouble at all with it, and it went pretty well too. I've since turned totally hooligan, and gone for 40s, but when they play up, they play up properly!! I do prefer the performance of 40s, but there is a lot to be said for simplicity.
Hi Michael having a bit of trouble posting message on classical gas wonder if you could post this for me...Having just caught up with messages . The S U debate , as some of you will know I used 1 3/4 inch with alloy adaptor onto G T inlet mainifold on the Anglia for many years .Very reliable set up, very light weight spring and very sharp needle ,with 3in one, in the cut down dash pot ,to fit under bonnet,[ had to fill with oil before each event because used to blow most out of the breather hole] modified by using brasso then checking how quick the engine revs picked up .Only basic stuff for me, shoe string trialer, no rolling roads. But the downfall of the S U no pump jet unlike the Weber. I now run a twin choke down draught Weber but not a 28/36 this would give better preformance but to much fuel surge.The twin 40's best preformance carb for trialing[ ask any cornish Escort driver] have been on the work bench for a year or two and are likely to stay there until Gordon Brown is gone!.The Webber set up gives you the ability to back off! with much more confidence on sections like the tight left hander on Bluehills Two.. I really had to change to a 'quicker' carb in an attempt to try to keep up with the Escort boys who run some very high preformance cars which are really p100/transit hybreds in an escort shell. I still love the old Anglia and on the odd good day when the drivers head is in gear we climb a few hills and the twin choke Weber even gained us a Baddely championship award a few years ago...Greg Warren....
I have a manifold and carbs for sidedraught su , I think it is for a
ReplyDelete1600 but have never used them . A Dommett 07866331393
How are you these days, Adrian? Long time no see! For Ed...a an alternative, what about a nice Bike carb set-up? OK, not quite ''in period''...but neither is a X-flow... Bike carbs will give exactly the same sort of fuelling performance of both SU carbs, and the likes of Webers or Dellortos. which is to say, the best of both worlds, for but a modest sum. they are extremely well made, reliable, easy to 'tune', compact in width...and will frighten the other Dellow drivers when you 'pop the hood?'
ReplyDeleteAdrian, I will call you tomorrow evening. Alistair, Thanks for the info, but to source and then sort out bike carbs is a bit beyond my limited mechanical skills, but if anybody has a set up already and need a car to try them out on mmmmmm....... I could be persuaded. Ed
ReplyDeleteWhy would you want to put SU carbs on a Ford engine? They never work well on a Ford. A pair of Webbers or Delauto's is the answer, once set up they will require no adjustment for years. Stuart Harrold
ReplyDeleteStuart - I'm not sure that you can be quite so categorically negative about SUs on a Crossflow. Although I'm going the twin Weber route for my Marlin engine transplant - and b****y complicated it's turning out to be as well - there are plenty of people (including at least two Troll owners that I know of) who swear that twin SUs are a better set-up if you can find the correct, rarer-than-hen's-teeth, manifold. Andrew
ReplyDelete''''Ed.....Give Bogg Brothers a call on 01944 738234...they will no doubt advise you on how to source, if need be.....they are pretty much THE experts in the fitment of bike carbs to car engines...but then, that's my opinion, and I've known them all a long time!
ReplyDeleteps..they ARE ''local'' to me, too!
ReplyDeleteTwin SUs on a Ford is something the yeller Dutton will be trying at some point - the question is, how big? Twin 1-1/2 or 1-3/4? We don't want to gain too much at the top end if it ruins the bottom end for PCTing. Which is why it'll also be trying a single 1-3/4 SU if it ever comes home . . . or if John comes and take his pile of metal tubing out of my garage . . . (only kidding Mr. Rhodes sir . .) Currently we run a FOMOCO 950 carb suitably tweeked - and the only place we needed more oomph was on the Jack and Jill hills on the Ross on Wye event. A manifold for twin SUs on a Ford went on ebay recently - I got mine via the same a few years ago, same for the single - that came from an autograss racer, complete with mud. Bri
ReplyDeleteJust to make you jealous, I hope to have attached an image of twin 1 1/2 H4 carbs on my virgin un-trialled Vincent. It is an very compact C/T manifold which I found at Beaulieu autojumble many years ago, Also, a Bogg Bros manifold and Yamaha R6 carbs I saw at there establishment in Yorkshire last week. Both setups cost around £400. I bought brand new H4 carbs which cost an arm and a leg, even 12 years ago. Bogg Bros quote around the same for a complete manifold and carb set up. You can get a good set of R6 carbs off ebay for circa £60. As for SU manifolds, they were made by firms such as VW Derrington, C/T (Conversion and Tuning Centre), Aquaplane ,and Mitcham Motors. I have seen twin HS4, twin H4, Twin Stromberg CD150, Twin 1 3/4, and single 1 3/4 or 2" manifolds for sale over the past couple of years.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the advice and discussion, all very helpful. I myself prefer the SU's as they tend to be more flexible on the hills and work at almost any angle even on the steepest of hills. What they may loose at the top end is more than made up by the smoothness of the power lower down. I ran a pair of 1.5"'s on my Imp's 915cc and they were by far the best set up for on the hills. As for what size to use have a read of 'How to Build & Power Tune SU Carbs' by Des Hammill. He suggest twin 1.5's for 1200cc-1600cc, but 1.75's for more heavily modified engines. For single carbs, the very least fore a 1600cc should be 1.5, but more likely a 1.75 or 1.875 (17/8"). Hope that helps. Ed
ReplyDeleteHaving only just joined and read Stuart's blanket condemnation of SU's on Fords ... may I comment from a totally practical perspective ? When I converted my Dellow (ECL 787) to 'modern' Ford power in the 70's, I chose to use a 1500 pre-crossflow unit. Bored out to 1650 and fitted with a Newman cam specifically designed for trials. Head was very lightly modded as per an article in C&CC. I bought a new C/T manifold and fitted twin 1.25" SU's and NOT the 1.5" size. Went like a train, never missed a beat in many years trialling, torquey but would rev. to 7,000 quite happily. Never once failed to get up Crooked Mustard or Simms, fabulous engine. So, if someone at the bar tells you Fords and SU's don't work ... be tempted by the immortal Mike Hailwood comment > "They are spherical and they bounce".
ReplyDeleteHaving now PCT-ed, sorry, "car-trialled" the yeller Dutton with SU, and a decent road test, It certainly seems to go okay. Revs to the limiter through all the gears, but also pulls from less than tick-over on the hills, if you know what I mean. Stopped working once when the lifting pin bounced up and jammed the piston - luckily! Otherwise newly rebuilt engine (see Johns write ups in CompleteKitcar magazine for trialling fun with a yeller Dutton) might be sounding a bit rough. Must remember to either stick a circlip on it, or remove it. Piccie attached - note the subtle hole in the bonnet, previously used to allow the FoMoCo carb and filter to poke thro, and also allows the twin SU setup you can just see in the bottom right to fit - only takes 20mins on a warm day to swop over. A bit longer on a cold day with numb fingers . . . Spare SUs currently on ebay if anyone wants any . . . Bri (mr.bricol)
ReplyDeleteSorry Stuart I have to disagree with you, I'm one of the Troll owners who used twin 1.5inch SU's on a 1700cc Ford Kent X-flow, it was fairly successful I think you would agree. The manifold was actually a proprietry casting (could have been C/T, had a lightening flash cast into it) made to accept twin Stromberg's which do not have handed flanges. I made up a pair of same handed SU's both with the float chamber in front, it worked a treat and after setting up on the rolling road, fitted with needles turned down on the lathe to something like hyperdermic syringes, the engine characteristics were perfect for trials. Parallel torque and power curves all the way through the range, no hesitation, instant throttle response, just a slight reduction in the possible maximum top end power given by twin Webers or Dellortos but that's not really relevent in a trials car. I still had 110 bhp on tap, more than enough in a 550kg trials car. Incidentally when I originally built VW Shorty it had a 1600 engine with a single 1.25 SU centrally mounted on a heated inlet manifold. This was perfected for me by a boffin friend from Cranfield. The gas speed was phenominal (circa 3 foot long inlet tracts!) again throttle response was instant and power more than adequate for purpose. All the bits have come back to me in a box with the car although someone has fitted twin Solex downdraughts to the engine. Haven't tried it yet but I bet it doesn't go as well as it used to.
ReplyDeleteThis message has been deleted by the author.
ReplyDeleteFurther to David's post. C/T manifolds did use a 'Lightning flash' as a trademark. A pair of 1.25" SU's are good for around 90bhp and their smaller size means that even at very low engine speeds there is still a decent gas velocity and therefore flexibility when pulling off slippery restarts. A pair of 1.5" SU's, as David found, are good for around 110bhp and his Troll was certainly an excellent advert for well set up SU's on a Ford. I also ran my 1600 trials Beetle on a 1.25" SU and it pulled far more strongly than a standard carb. I also ran with a 1.25" Minnow Fish for a while and that was way, way better again than the SU - but there were carb freezing issues in winter that even the proper Fish 12 volt intake heater failed to resolve.
ReplyDeleteI would have to say that I'm also pro Ford/SU. I ran a 1.75'' single SU on my Escort for several years
ReplyDeleteOK, so my first posting was only half a message, I'll try again:-)) I had no trouble at all with it, and it went pretty well too. I've since turned totally hooligan, and gone for 40s, but when they play up, they play up properly!! I do prefer the performance of 40s, but there is a lot to be said for simplicity.
ReplyDeleteHi Michael having a bit of trouble posting message on classical gas wonder if you could post this for me...Having just caught up with messages . The S U debate , as some of you will know I used 1 3/4 inch with alloy adaptor onto G T inlet mainifold on the Anglia for many years .Very reliable set up, very light weight spring and very sharp needle ,with 3in one, in the cut down dash pot ,to fit under bonnet,[ had to fill with oil before each event because used to blow most out of the breather hole] modified by using brasso then checking how quick the engine revs picked up .Only basic stuff for me, shoe string trialer, no rolling roads. But the downfall of the S U no pump jet unlike the Weber. I now run a twin choke down draught Weber but not a 28/36 this would give better preformance but to much fuel surge.The twin 40's best preformance carb for trialing[ ask any cornish Escort driver] have been on the work bench for a year or two and are likely to stay there until Gordon Brown is gone!.The Webber set up gives you the ability to back off! with much more confidence on sections like the tight left hander on Bluehills Two.. I really had to change to a 'quicker' carb in an attempt to try to keep up with the Escort boys who run some very high preformance cars which are really p100/transit hybreds in an escort shell. I still love the old Anglia and on the odd good day when the drivers head is in gear we climb a few hills and the twin choke Weber even gained us a Baddely championship award a few years ago...Greg Warren....
ReplyDelete